MLB 2008-09 Hot Stove League

[CrushOfVeils80]

I just have a hard time saying guys like Thome are "for sure" hall of famers when guys like Andre Dawson, Jim Rice, Bert Blyleven, and Thurman Munson are not in, I'd love to see Dawson's Stats if he played at Jacob's Field for 10 years

 

As for the Nats they need the face of the organization guy and Tex would be a good fit but $20 mill is a lot, I dont see Tex being super productive though in DC until he has some protection and Lastings Milledge and Ryan Zimmerman are good young players but are still learning on the job, they only had 112 RBI between the two of them last year, Tex would get pitched around all year in 2009

[MrRain422]

Thome is better than Dawson, and probably comparable to Rice -- Thome is a better hitter than Rice but gets a few knocks for being a DH for the last few years. I'd say that Thome just squeaks in. Blyleven is the biggest travesty in the game though. Should have been in years ago.

[MrRain422]

its the hall of fame not the hall of very good

 

It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Great. So everyone famous should be in, right?

 

Citing the name of the place is a pretty weak argument, since "very good" isn't really part of the same scale as "fame". I get really tired of hearing the "it's not the hall of very good" argument. It makes no sense.

 

[/ grumpy jerk]

 

BTW, not sure if it's been mentioned here yet but Longoria and Soto were named Rookies of the Year today.

[CrushOfVeils80]

The hall of very good argument does hold water though, I like Thome and I think he gets in but he is better than Dawson and Rice? Cmon now.... I just dont think people realize how the ballparks Thome played in helped his career, would his stats be as good as they are if he played at different parks? Its something the HOF has to start thinking about.....also Im not sure if Thome was a better hitter than Dawson, for power sure but all around I might have to go with the Hawk, Thome was surrounded by gobs of talent in Cleveland where as Dawson played half his career with the Expos, also Dawson had one of the best arms ever in the outfield, getting to play DH sometimes helped Thome as well....speaking of the Expos Tim Raines should be in the HOF as well

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

Adjusted OPS+ is supposed to factor in ballpark and league averages--Thome does very well in that category vis a vis Rice and Dawson. His averages will go down a bit as he closes out his career, but he's sitting pretty now.

[MrRain422]

I agree that Tim Raines should be in the HoF. Not sure why he's barely ever even mentioned.

 

Thome's career OPS at home is .998. On the road it's .935. He's been helped by some good home ballparks but it's not that huge of a difference. He has an identical number of hits at home as on the road (1,024 each), a few more doubles on the road than at home (200/197) and 51 more homers at home (300/241). If Thome had put up the same numbers at home as he did on the road, he'd still be inching pretty close to Hall of Fame status.

 

My main objection to the "it's not the hall of very good" is that I once heard Colin Cowherd repeat it over and over again with little additional commentary for like 20 minutes. It's enough to drive a man insane.

[CrushOfVeils80]

Thome has over 500 homers and the media is in love with that 500 mark so Thome gets in with little doubt in my mind but I'd love to see what guys like Dawson and Rice would have done in a time of baby ballparks and diluted pitching

[CrushOfVeils80]

I agree that Tim Raines should be in the HoF. Not sure why he's barely ever even mentioned.

 

Thome's career OPS at home is .998. On the road it's .935. He's been helped by some good home ballparks but it's not that huge of a difference. He has an identical number of hits at home as on the road (1,024 each), a few more doubles on the road than at home (200/197) and 51 more homers at home (300/241). If Thome had put up the same numbers at home as he did on the road, he'd still be inching pretty close to Hall of Fame status.

 

My main objection to the "it's not the hall of very good" is that I once heard Colin Cowherd repeat it over and over again with little additional commentary for like 20 minutes. It's enough to drive a man insane.

 

 

oh I agree, I mean I think Thome should be in, but if he gets in Dawson and Rice need to be in as well

 

Raines might be one of the top 3 leadoff hitters of all time, I really hope he gets in, my fav Rock Raines stat is 1330 walks and only 966 K's...thats amazing...also there wasnt a more consistent leadoff hitter in the 80's than Raines

 

funny you mention that Cowherd says that, I have heard Rome say it as well, the first time I actually heard it was a friend of mine, eventhough I think he gets in I have a hard time calling Thome a great player...Dawson won an MVP, finished 2nd in the MVP voting twice, has 8 gold gloves, and won the rookie of the year...he was a great player.....I like Cowherd when he talks about pop culture and everyday life things but when it comes to sports he is a big chump and a pac 10 homer beging from Washington and I cant stand that

 

Oh and put Pete Rose in already

[bjorn_skurj]

I liked Milledge, but he is an ass. Unless he gets some guidance and structure, which does not seem available on that glorified softball girls team in D.C., he will be a has-been in short order.

[CrushOfVeils80]

agreed....sky is the limit for Milledge but he needs to shorten his swing and will never be that good of a player until he is more discipline

[MattZ]

Are there rumors/suspicions of Thome being connected to steroids? Sadly, I think this question will be linked to most of this era when it comes to HOF discussions. Perhaps even more sadly is that some are assumed guilty while others are assumed innocent. I don't ask to pass judgment or to start this debate again. I am just curious.

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

I have suggested that a few times in these threads. No rumors, but the dude is built like a brick wall (HGH?).

[CrushOfVeils80]

It's a good question MattZ....as for Thome I think he was clean, he doesnt really have the body guys like Big Mac, Sosa, and Bonds had....as a huge baseball guy I like to think guys are clean until provne dirty when it comes to steroids, also Im not sure how much it helps you hit a round ball with a round bat but thats a whole other topic, it will totally be an issue when guys are up for the HOF the next few years

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

I read that Thome had an Obama/Biden in his yard. That should seal the deal.

[CrushOfVeils80]

I read that Thome had an Obama/Biden in his yard. That should seal the deal.

 

 

if true...he is in unanimously

[MrRain422]

I've heard Thome steroid/HGH speculation, but it was all based on his offensive production and his physical build -- no real evidence.

[CrushOfVeils80]

Thome was a big kid when he came up, I think he is clean, he wasnt built like Sosa or Mac at all, but who knows, those two guys have really ruined it for a lot of players this generation

[bobbob1313]

The simple solution that nobody ever considers when judging players of the steroid era is: judge them against the players they played against. You wouldn't judge a national league hitter in the 60's against an AL hitter from the 20's. It would be unfair. So judge the guys who played in this era.

 

And Baseball prospectus has a study that shows that much of the growth in home run hitting in the 90's was the result of fringe guys, not stars, increasing their production.

[CrushOfVeils80]

pitching was really bad for a few years after expansion in 98 as well which increased the homer, the last three years has been fine IMHO

[Lammycat]

Oh and put Pete Rose in already

Gah! The HOF, since the Rose lifetime banning from MLB (which he agreed to) does not admit or even consider players/managers on the permanent ineligibility list. Rose deserves nothing.

[Lammycat]

SI.com reporting Matt Holliday to Oakland.

CO gets CL Huston Street, LHP Greg Smith and OF Carlos Gonzalez. Not bad as there was no way Holliday was staying in CO. I believe they are looking to dump Street for more starting pitching, too.:

 

http://www.sportsline.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270335/11618874

[bjorn_skurj]

The simple solution that nobody ever considers when judging players of the steroid era is: judge them against the players they played against. You wouldn't judge a national league hitter in the 60's against an AL hitter from the 20's. It would be unfair. So judge the guys who played in this era.

 

And Baseball prospectus has a study that shows that much of the growth in home run hitting in the 90's was the result of fringe guys, not stars, increasing their production.

Would not fringe guys be more likely to take the 'roids route out of desperation?

[Lammycat]

Would not fringe guys be more likely to take the 'roids route out of desperation?

I thought that was b2's point. Maybe not, but yeah, I'd agree with you bjorn.

[MrRain422]

Not ready to take a position on this yet, but just to throw this out there:

 

Gary Sheffield in the Hall of Fame? Yea or nay?

[MattZ]

Not ready to take a position on this yet, but just to throw this out there:

 

Gary Sheffield in the Hall of Fame? Yea or nay?

 

Without looking at stats, and just going on gut, nay.