MLB 2008-09 Hot Stove League

[Guest Jules]

Not ready to take a position on this yet, but just to throw this out there:

 

Gary Sheffield in the Hall of Fame? Yea or nay?

nay

[Lammycat]

I think Sheffield has a very good shot at the HOF, assuming no more serious allegations of steroids- or proof of use, for that matter- as he was named in the Mitchell Report. I think Sheffield's numbers are HOF-worthy, for the most part.

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

He was named in the BALCO investigation, IIRC.

[MrRain422]

He's probably the only 'roider that I believe when he says he didn't know they were steroids. He's just that crazy.

[bobbob1313]

Sheff is absolutely a HOFer in my eyes, though I might be biased because he was the first real Marlins star and would probably go in as a Marlin.

 

His resume is as good as anyone's, he's just a jerk. One of the best pure hitters of his time. Walked 300 times more than he struck out, and he also hit 500 homers and stole 250 bases.

[MrRain422]

Bobbob, dude, Sheff only has 499 homeruns.

 

I think Sheff has the credentials. The biggest knock on him is that he played in an era where there were several more dominant hitters than him (Bonds, Pujols, A-Rod, Griffey, Manny, Frank Thomas, maybe a few others). And yeah, he's both a jerk and possibly legitimately insane, which doesn't endear him to the writers.

 

Here's the Sheff profile, to make this easier:

 

2476 Games

8949 AB

2,615 Hits

.292/.394/.516

141 OPS+

499 Homeruns

454 Doubles

25 Triples

251 Stolen Bases

 

6 top ten finishes in the MVP voting

1 Batting title (1992)

1 OPS title (1996)

1 Total bases title (1992)

 

 

Similar Batters (* = HoF)

1. Fred McGriff (879)

2. Ken Griffey (866)

3. Reggie Jackson (852) *

4. Mickey Mantle (850) *

5. Billy Williams (848) *

6. Mel Ott (846) *

7. Eddie Mathews (840) *

8. Frank Thomas (837)

9. Mike Schmidt (836) *

10. Jeff Bagwell (834)

 

Similar Batters through Age 39

1. Reggie Jackson (876) *

2. Fred McGriff (875)

3. Dave Winfield (857) *

4. Mike Schmidt (836) *

5. Ernie Banks (833) *

6. Frank Thomas (829)

7. Rafael Palmeiro (828)

8. Al Kaline (821) *

9. Andre Dawson (819)

10. Frank Robinson (813) *

 

And for those who care about such things:

8 All-star appearances at 3 different positions (3B, LF, RF)

5 Silver sluggers

[CrushOfVeils80]

Sheff is one of the best right handed hitters of this generation, I dont think I ever saw better bat speed than GS in his prime, his numbers are there so he probably gets in, he has made 9 all star games, won a batting title, has over 1600 plus RBI, and he is just one homer away from the number the media has a hardon for....500

 

but he is a d bag and that combined with the mitchell report might make him borderline, Im very 50-50 I guess, he would go in as a Marlin which would be strange cuz they have only been around 15 years

[CrushOfVeils80]

Sheff is another guy that if you put in the HOF then Andre bleeping Dawson needs to be in too

 

maybe its this era but...

Bonds = jerk

A-Rod = jerk

Manny = d bag and jerk

Griffey and Thomas- maybe not jerks per se but standoffish with the media

 

all deserve in IMHO, even Bonds, he was a hall of famer a year or two before he hit *73

[Lammycat]

all deserve in IMHO, even Bonds, he was a hall of famer a year or two before he hit *73

So after he started using steroids around '98? I don't think Bonds will ever be accepted into the HOF.

[CrushOfVeils80]

Another guy playing in this this era hurts is Jeff Bagwell, now I love Bagwell and think he is in but it might not happen right away, he only played in 4 all star games and that will hurt him, I do hope the writers take into account the fact that most of his best years came in the Astrodome which was not a hitter park whatsoever, I would have logved to have seen what kind of year he had in 1994 if it wasnt for the strike, he could have had a 55 homer-170 RBI-.370 type year which is amazing in any era, it also doesnt hurt bagwell that he played his whole career with one team

[MrRain422]

Bagwell is a Hall of Famer in my book. He got overlooked playing in Houston, but he's worthy.

 

I always thought that the A-Rod as jerk meme was overblown. I don't really know of him being much of a jerk other than that stupid attempt to slap the ball out of the firstbaseman's glove. That was really lame. I think he's been pretty well behaved considering how under the microscope he's been. I don't know of him ever lashing out at the media or fans. The worst I can think of is his marital problems, but I'm not really sure why I even know about those.

[CrushOfVeils80]

So after he started using steroids around '98? I don't think Bonds will ever be accepted into the HOF.

 

 

Bonds will make the HOF, remember these same writers who will be voting for him are the same writers who kept selecting him as MVP year after year after year, you cant deny his greatness, I really dont think he started using until 2000 but again he was a HOF by then, if you look at his stats after 1998 he has 3 MVP's, 8 gold gloves, and made 8 all star games...thats HOF....... he is also a guy who would have been in the HOF without any help from steroids and I think the writers will see that, sure he is a jerk but there are lots of jerks in the HOF, its not the hall of swell cats

[Lammycat]

Bonds will make the HOF, remember these same writers who will be voting for him are the same writers who kept selecting him as MVP year after year after year, you cant deny his greatness, I really dont think he started using until 2000 but again he was a HOF by then, if you look at his stats after 1998 he has 3 MVP's, 8 gold gloves, and made 8 all star games...thats HOF....... he is also a guy who would have been in the HOF without any help from steroids and I think the writers will see that, sure he is a jerk but there are lots of jerks in the HOF, its not the hall of swell cats

I don't think it's a matter as simple as was he a douchebag or not. Indications show that the BWAA are reluctant to allow entry into the HOF for players accused/shown to be steroids users. Records show that he began using in 1998. Regardless, he used. I also think it's unfair to speculate what he would have done had he not used steroids. If he didn't need them them why did he use them?

[CrushOfVeils80]

Putting aside that ARod opted out his contract a few years ago as the highest paid player to get more money (which is enough to dislike a guy) ARod is a very strange guy, he is very dramaitc when it comes to peoples opinion on him, he thinks everyone is out to get him, sure he is under the microscope a lot but thats life when you play por sports and you make as much money as some small countries, I really dont see the Yankees winning a World Series with ARod there, its not a shock to me at all they havent won one since he has been there, he is a cancer in the clubhouse, ARod cares about ARod first and the team second, this of course is just my opinion but I doubt Im alone, also as a Ranger fan its easy to hate ARod, he is a great player a first ballot HOF and one of the best of this generation if not the best but its easy to not like him, here are some of my fav ARod quotes...

 

"When people write bad things about me, I don't know if it's because I'm good-looking, I'm biracial, I make the most money, I play on the most popular team." wow dude, get over yourself

 

also, when asked about his lack of hitting in the clutch....

 

"I could care less. In my career, I've been hearing it for a long time. It will never stop until you win five or six World Series in a row, and hit a Joe Carter home run. I've done a lot of special things in this game, and for none of that to be considered clutch, it's an injustice." thats great and all Alex but you are 19-79 (.240) with only 8 RBI as a Yankee in the postseason which yankee fans will tell you is all that matters to them

 

 

 

I don't think it's a matter as simple as was he a douchebag or not. Indications show that the BWAA are reluctant to allow entry into the HOF for players accused/shown to be steroids users. Records show that he began using in 1998. Regardless, he used. I also think it's unfair to speculate what he would have done had he not used steroids. If he didn't need them them why did he use them?

 

 

what records show he began using in 1998?

[Lammycat]

what records show he began using in 1998?

Game of Shadows details his use beginning right after the 1998 season.

[MrRain422]

Putting aside that ARod opted out his contract a few years ago as the highest paid player to get more money (which is enough to dislike a guy)

 

Every single player in baseball would do this if they thought they'd get a bigger contract out of it.

 

ARod is a very strange guy, he is very dramaitc when it comes to peoples opinion on him, he thinks everyone is out to get him,

 

A lot of people are out to get him.

 

sure he is under the microscope a lot but thats life when you play por sports and you make as much money as some small countries, I really dont see the Yankees winning a World Series with ARod there, its not a shock to me at all they havent won one since he has been there, he is a cancer in the clubhouse,

 

Gary Sheffield has won a World Series. Manny Ramirez has won a couple World Series. Ty fucking Cobb won the World Series. By all accounts, these guys are bigger clubhouse cancers than A-Rod. I think the reason the Yankees haven't won a World Series since they got him is because they've generally had terrible pitching (and a little bit of bad luck).

 

"When people write bad things about me, I don't know if it's because I'm good-looking, I'm biracial, I make the most money, I play on the most popular team." wow dude, get over yourself

 

I think he's right though -- that's a pretty good assessment of some of the reasons that people write about him.

 

also, when asked about his lack of hitting in the clutch....

 

"I could care less. In my career, I've been hearing it for a long time. It will never stop until you win five or six World Series in a row, and hit a Joe Carter home run. I've done a lot of special things in this game, and for none of that to be considered clutch, it's an injustice." thats great and all Alex but you are 19-79 (.240) with only 8 RBI as a Yankee in the postseason which yankee fans will tell you is all that matters to them

 

Yankees fans are idiots. A-Rod is right.

[Lammycat]

WAS get Scott Olson and Josh Willingham from FLA for Emilio Bonifacio and a couple of Minor leaguers (not much of return there, FLA):

Longoria and Soto named ROYs:

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/HeadLines...B&hl=251905

[MrRain422]

For the record, I'm no fan of A-Rod. I hate the Yankees in general, and I do think he's a little whiny. But I also think that the criticism of his play is stupid, and most criticism of him personally is out of line.

[bjorn_skurj]

RIP, Preacher Roe.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/base...t.ap/index.html

[bobbob1313]

WAS get Scott Olson and Josh Willingham from FLA for Emilio Bonifacio and a couple of Minor leaguers (not much of return there, FLA):

Longoria and Soto named ROYs:

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/HeadLines...B&hl=251905

 

I don't like or dislike the move. Willingham's bad back + a glut of OFers means he's expendable. If his back is as bad as I think it is, he's basically Luis Castillo with no speed playing left field, which is terrible. We've already got a guy who can do that in AA right now.

 

And Olsen sucks. I like the 19 year old short stop we got.

[MattZ]

Now that I look at the stats posted for Sheffield, it's hard to imagine that he doesn't get into the Hall. Those are pretty impressive -- even in this era of inflated stats. Obviously, I can't predict what impact his supposed steroid use will have. But on pure numbers, it looks like he should be in.

 

One glaring thing missing from his resume is an MVP. I woudl guess that it's happened plenty of times before, but who are the best players in the HOF that never won an MVP?

 

Also, people mentioned a few times that he's the best right handed hitter of his generation. I assume they consider Manny to be from the generation that followed his?

[Oil Can Boyd]

RIP, Preacher Roe.

One of the best baseball names ever.

[CrushOfVeils80]

Game of Shadows details his use beginning right after the 1998 season.

 

There is still no proof that all of that book is non fiction....dont get me wrong I think Bonds is as Dirty as a south Detroit McDonalds but there is still a lack of proof

[CrushOfVeils80]

Every single player in baseball would do this if they thought they'd get a bigger contract out of it.

 

 

 

A lot of people are out to get him.

 

 

 

Gary Sheffield has won a World Series. Manny Ramirez has won a couple World Series. Ty fucking Cobb won the World Series. By all accounts, these guys are bigger clubhouse cancers than A-Rod. I think the reason the Yankees haven't won a World Series since they got him is because they've generally had terrible pitching (and a little bit of bad luck).

 

 

 

I think he's right though -- that's a pretty good assessment of some of the reasons that people write about him.

 

 

 

Yankees fans are idiots. A-Rod is right.

 

 

you obviously like ARod, which is fine, but obvious nonetheless, to each their own I guess

 

 

For the record, I'm no fan of A-Rod. I hate the Yankees in general, and I do think he's a little whiny. But I also think that the criticism of his play is stupid, and most criticism of him personally is out of line.

 

 

ARod doesnt hit with RISP this isnt criticism its just a fact

 

ok maybe you dont like ARod, I just read your next post, my bad

[CrushOfVeils80]

off the top of my head some of the better players to never win an MVP are....Tony Gwynn, Paul Molitor, Eddie Murray, Wade Boggs, Al Kaline, Richie Ashburn, etc etc