Pet Sounds

[LouieB]

well said, my friend.

Does that mean that Sam Cooke and his brethern in the Soul Stirrers weren't really that good. How about all those girl groups and those quartet singers Elvis was listening to in and around Memphis, the great great groups from Philly and other parts of the country, the Brill building groups, Phil Spector's groups, the Motown groups, etc. etc.

 

Clearly the Beach Boys were the most successful and recognizable harmony group ever (and whitest), but as for the best? They sang great songs about surfing, cars and girls and occasionally about trying to grow up. And Brian Wilson IS one of the greatest songwriters from California. None of that makes the Beach Boys less than they were (rather than are.)

 

LouieB

[Synthesizer Patel]

I never said i didn't LIKE the Beach Boys. I like them quite alot. Nor am I criticiizing them either. They were a great vocal group, but they may or may not be the greatest vocal group of all time. I just find it interesting that because they sang in harmony that makes them the greatest vocal group in history when there were many many other groups singing in harmony as well. Ignore the scads of do-wop and other groups if you wish, but they were there singing their hearts out in four part harmony for years before the Beach Boys got their start. Maybe someone can explain to me what innovation in harmony singing the Beach Boys developed that I don't currently understand. Maybe someone can also explain what innovation to orchestration they developed as well. The Beach Boys will always be the biggest selling and most recognizable band doing harmony, fair enough.

 

LouieB

 

I think you're missing my point. I know you didn't say you didn't like them, which is why I never said you didn't in the first place. Neither did I ignore vocal groups from the past - what I actually said was that The Beach Boys were original in how they brought these various elements together in their music - they brought together old elements and made them sound new, in the same way The Beatles did - they weren;t the first to mix styles obviously, but neither were The Beatles, what they did do though was make the music sound original and their own. Also, I have made it pretty clear that I prefer the bands music after Pet Sounds and the Smile project, and their is very little orchestration on those albums, their is however early synths and the like, which (if you are only interested in music based on who did what first) they were early pioneers of.

[LouieB]

Okay....fair enough...

 

I figured I had to stir the pot a bit here. Turn on an oldies station sometime (not classic rock) and there were any number of less successful (and sometimes African American) groups singing in incredible and complex harmony, usually about love....(let's not talk about the Four Seasons, because of course they were just a commercial group who sold millions of albums not a cult group like the Beach Boys...)

 

Last weekend when I saw Dave Alvin, he sang Surfer Girl, which is part of his West of the West disk. (he acknowledged Brian as one of the greatest California songwriters.) He talked about some California do-wop group that he used to sing back-up on the song on the album and talked about how these guys never got recognized, yet continue to sing even up to today.

 

Hearing the Beach Boys is kind of like breathing to me. They were seemingly always there on the AM radio at home, the tinny car ratdio and on the oldies stations. They will always be there in the future as well.

 

LouieB

[Synthesizer Patel]

The thing about The Beach Boys to me which offers more than The Beatles is that by the time I was 8 I knew all there is to know about The Beatles & Simon & Garfunkel for that matter, because my parents played all the albums all the time, as most other parents probably did too. However, with The Beach Boys most parents (and mine included) only used to play their early music reguarly (basically it was a Beach Boys comp or John Denver comp on every holiday trip or long car journey) and it wasn't until I was a bit older before I heard Pet Sounds (from my parents record collection, but they didn't seem to play it that often so I missed out on discovering it sooner) and it so it was more of a discovery than something that was the norm (like The Beatles). I thought that would be the end, but more recently (after they started to release the albums on 2 album cds) I have discovered that The Beach Boys actually then went on to make a run of 8 brilliant albums after Pet Sounds that very few people liked at the time, and only now people are starting to appreciate. I am sure far far fewer know about these albums than they do about any Beatles release, so if Pet Sounds means they will discover them, this can only be a good thing.

 

When you say The Beach Boys were always on radio you must surely be refering to the band up to and including Pet Sounds. I find it hard to believe that AM radio in your country plays or played much after that period because apart from Surfs Up, all those other albums barely even charted.

[LouieB]

When you say The Beach Boys were always on radio you must surely be refering to the band up to and including Pet Sounds. I find it hard to believe that AM radio in your country plays or played much after that period because apart from Surfs Up, all those other albums barely even charted.

Well that's true, but even so, the three big songs that were part of Smile all got air time, I remember them all well. And you can't forget Kokomo (although all of wish we could.)

 

Are we talking Sunflower here? I have that. 15 Big Ones? I have that too. (How about that song about Johnny Carson??)

 

LouieB

[LouieB]

Okay, so I have admitted that the Beach Boys aren't a group I "followed" other than hearing them on the radio, but as my recollections go, there were songs from most of the later albums that did chart here in the USA. Heros and Villians, Good Vibrations, Wild Honey, Cotton Fields, Surfs Up, Sail on Sailor, Rock and Roll Music, Keepin the summer alive, and Kokomo. (Thanks to wikopedia for assisting in this.)

 

Most of these singles don't hold up compared to the early stuff.

 

Oh and the Christmas album has two of the greatest rock Christmas songs ever, the man with all the toys and Little St. Nick.

 

 

LouieB

[ction]

Most of these singles don't hold up compared to the early stuff.

 

The Beach Boys' singles got increasingly complex, more demanding and difficult as they went along. You should really listen to them again, and not dismiss them just because they're challening.

[Synthesizer Patel]

Well that's true, but even so, the three big songs that were part of Smile all got air time, I remember them all well. And you can't forget Kokomo (although all of wish we could.)

 

Are we talking Sunflower here? I have that. 15 Big Ones? I have that too. (How about that song about Johnny Carson??)

 

LouieB

 

I wasn't really including 15 Big Ones in my list of over-looked post Pet Sounds albums, but certainly Love You (which you can get as a 2-fer cd with 15 Big Ones) is the last album they made that is worth listening to. Johnny Carson (that's on Love You actually) is definately a very weird track, but it shows how they are prepared to do anything in their music. Actually one of my favourite things about the band is that they can be totally corny and incredibly inventive often in the space of one song.

 

Personally my favourite Beach Boys album is Holland, but certainly Sunflower, Surf's Up, Friends, 20/20, Wild Honey and Smiley Smile, oh and Carl & The Passions are albums that many people haven't heard because Pet Sounds is seen as this great towering achievement and then the band imploded or something and re-appeared with Kokomo, which isn't true. If you don't own all those albums Louie you really should - as should everyone else, then we won't only have to talk about Pet Sounds. Analogman and thisyearsgirl will agree I am sure.

[Synthesizer Patel]

The Beach Boys' singles got increasingly complex, more demanding and difficult as they went along. You should really listen to them again, and not dismiss them just because they're challening.

 

Exactly. Plus, really they weren't all about singles by this time - you have to hear the albums as a whole.

[bobbob1313]

I honestly couldn't imagine enjoying Pet Sounds at the age of 13. I think that's the problem this album faces. Nobody can really get into it when they are young. You have to have at least some level of maturity or life experience, or whatever you want to call it, to "get it". It's a very difficult album to love, but once you do, it's a great album.

[LouieB]

I own a few of the later albums. 15 Big ones, Sunflower and Wild Honey. Maybe another one or two. (I own a solo Brian Wilson album too and recently got Smile as well.)

 

By this time I was listening to other groups and other music. The world had moved on for me. Nothing against the Beach Boys, but alot was happening by the late 60s and early 70s.

 

LouieB

[Analogman]

I own them all now - since I finally got the Christmas cd a while back. If one is going to buy them, make sure you get the 2000 re-masters. The ones before that sound like shit. And - as BBH noted - you actually get two cds for the price of one in most cases. One overlooked gem is this one:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beach_Boys_in_Concert

[Synthesizer Patel]

I own them all now - since I finally got the Christmas cd a while back. If one is going to buy them, make sure you get the 2000 re-masters. The ones before that sound like shit. And - as BBH noted - you actually get two cds for the price of one in most cases. One overlooked gem is this one:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beach_Boys_in_Concert

 

That is a very good live album, you're right.

 

Have you got the MIU/La cd? That is the only 2 albums from the 70's I don't have, but I am not too sure if it is worth owning. What do you think?

[Analogman]

That is a very good live album, you're right.

 

Have you got the MIU/La cd? That is the only 2 albums from the 70's I don't have, but I am not too sure if it is worth owning. What do you think?

 

 

I have them all. I am a completist on a few bands still + there is always a good song here and there somewhere.

[Campaigner]

That is a very good live album, you're right.

 

Have you got the MIU/La cd? That is the only 2 albums from the 70's I don't have, but I am not too sure if it is worth owning. What do you think?

 

The MIU album is pretty dodgy - but the LA album is underrated I think - along with 'Good Timin'' there's also 'Baby Blue', which is probably the last great Dennis Wilson song. The less said about "Keepin' the Summer Alive" though, the better...

[Synthesizer Patel]

I might buy it then. I already have Good Timin' & Baby Blue on the boxset 'Good Vibrations', but I think I'd like to have the albums because they will be mastered better, and there must be a few other good tracks on there too, although the idea of a disco version of "Here Comes The Night" sounds very dodgy indeed.

[Albert Tatlock]

I bought the LA album when it first came out.

ANGEL COME HOME, LADY LYNDA, SUMAHAMA - all OK for me.

And, Here Comes The Night (bom) is so dodgy as to be almost funny. They should have included a free chest wig and medallion with each album.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

Does anyone know who the big vocal influence on the Beach Boys' sound was? I think I remember Brian saying it was The Four Freshman, but I don't know their stuff, so maybe I'm not remembering accurately here...

[LouieB]

Does anyone know who the big vocal influence on the Beach Boys' sound was? I think I remember Brian saying it was The Four Freshman, but I don't know their stuff, so maybe I'm not remembering accurately here...

I wouldn't be too surprised.

 

But of course we all know, the Beach Boys invented quartet singing...(are you attempting to drag me BACK into this argument.... )...

 

One of the best parts of Guaralnick's book on Elvis is talking about him being influenced by the incredible harmony singing of the groups of his day, both the secular and religious. (and Lieber and Stoller...??)

 

LouieB

[Synthesizer Patel]

I wouldn't be too surprised.

 

But of course we all know, the Beach Boys invented quartet singing...(are you attempting to drag me BACK into this argument.... )...

 

One of the best parts of Guaralnick's book on Elvis is talking about him being influenced by the incredible harmony singing of the groups of his day, both the secular and religious. (and Lieber and Stoller...??)

 

LouieB

 

Oi! I thought we'd settled this already. You should bare in mind though, that just because certain people from the advent of recorded music onwards put group harmony singing on to record. That doesn't mean they invented it - all forms of early music are based on groups singing together so naturally harmonising is a part of that. I still don't see how this diminishes the importance of the beach boys in modern music.

[LouieB]

Oi! I thought we'd settled this already. You should bare in mind though, that just because certain people from the advent of recorded music onwards put group harmony singing on to record. That doesn't mean they invented it - all forms of early music are based on groups singing together so naturally harmonising is a part of that. I still don't see how this diminishes the importance of the beach boys in modern music.

Yea, we are done and it doesn't diminsh the Beach Boys to discuss all the great groups that preceeded them.

 

LouieB

[1212]

I don't like the beach boys

[yankhotelfox]

I was lucky enough to see Brian conduct his band during the first American tour of Pet Sounds. My father took me (he's the biggest Brian Wilson fan on earth) and the band did the album in order. It was incredible! Underrated, I think not. This is one of the greatest albums of all time.

[bigideas]

i have read about the Four Freshman influence a lot. combine that with the sound of early rock n'roll (chuck berry, etc) and you have a basis for early Beach Boys. then bring in Brian's admiration of Phil Spector's Wall of Sound and you get into the mid 60's Beach Boys stuff. then add the psychedlic influence of the Beatles and drugs, etc and you get another big part of the Beach Boys late 60's/early 70's canon.

 

have ya'll heard the bonus cut on the Smiley Smile/Wild Honey disc, Their Hearts Were Full of Spring? i believe this was a song the Four Freshman did. this cut is taken from a live warm up before a concert and it is so note perfect and beautiful.

 

one thing you also have to consider, people earlier were pointing to other groups/influences, but remember that Brian did it all. some of those you mentioned most likely didn't write their songs. Phil Spector (as far as i know) only arranged the backing track and didn't sing. he did actually write the songs though, right?

 

Brian sang in beautiful falsetto, wrote the songs down to 4 part or greater harmonies (even demonstrating each part to the others sometimes i understand), arranged the backing track (utilizing odd instrument combinations to make unique sounds - 2 accordions on Wouldn't it Be Nice, etc), also used the studio as an 'instrument' by recording different sections of songs (in different studios even) and then putting them together (this started with Good Vibrations). unless i'm mistaken the Beatles or anyone else didn't do anything like that before GV.

[thisyearsgirl]

Nobody can really get into it when they are young. You have to have at least some level of maturity or life experience, or whatever you want to call it, to "get it". It's a very difficult album to love, but once you do, it's a great album.

 

i've been listening to and enjoying pet sounds since childhood. while the messages sent by the songs didn't fully register until later, i think i pretty much "got it" by the time i was in high school.

 

as far as it being a difficult album to love, i don't really think i agree with that as well. the sequencing of the songs, to me, is perfect and there is no one part, just like movements in a symphony, that doesn't fit. to me, that is what makes an album, and this one in particular, great.

 

i'm not fighting you, bobbob. i'm just saying.