Lammycat Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Big Papi. Wow. That's all I can say. Wow. Heck of a finish for you Sawx fans.It's amazing that I pretty much expect it now from him. No need for the current best closer in the game tonight, either.... Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Jesus, have they not heard of the intentional walk in Cleveland? Link to post Share on other sites
Lammycat Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Jesus, have they not heard of the intentional walk in Cleveland?With Manny on deck? Maybe Manny doesn't hit the walk-off, but he's a good bet to at least drive in the runners on 1st and 2nd. I'd say the pooch was screwed once Cora and Youklis got their bases. Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 I know, but it seems like Ortiz is making a living off of the walk-off hit. Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Yeah, Ortiz is the last guy you want at the plate at that point if you're a pitcher, but intentionally putting the winning run on base is always a no-no. Link to post Share on other sites
Duck-Billed Catechist Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 The Orioles put the go-ahead run on (Jim Thome) in the ninth a couple days ago and faced the wrath of Ross Gload! Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 And here is a picture of Bruce Sutter: Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted August 1, 2006 Author Share Posted August 1, 2006 Apparently, ARod is doing better than Ortiz in the "clutch" categories. Link to post Share on other sites
EL the Famous Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Rick Sutcliffe three sheets to the wind in the Padres Broadcast Booth Link to post Share on other sites
tongue-tied lightning Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 NEW YORK - Derek Jeter cologne is on the way. Derek Jeter's cologne will be called Driven.Avon Products Inc. has signed the New York Yankees shortstop to a deal in which it will create a men's fragrance called Driven Link to post Share on other sites
darkstar Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 NEW YORK - Derek Jeter cologne is on the way. Derek Jeter's cologne will be called Driven.Avon Products Inc. has signed the New York Yankees shortstop to a deal in which it will create a men's fragrance called Driven Link to post Share on other sites
darkstar Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 (edited) Apparently, ARod is doing better than Ortiz in the "clutch" categories. While I'm sure you have tons of Bill Jamesian data to back that up, keep in mind that Papi has now had 12 walk-off hits in the last four seasons. The most in that span of time. Seems like that is a very good definition of clutch. I know, I know there are guys with better averages with 2 outs with runners in scoring position or whatever, but the case is clear. This guy has single-handedly won 12 games with his bat, no one else has done that. Edited August 1, 2006 by darkstar Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted August 1, 2006 Author Share Posted August 1, 2006 While I'm sure you have tons of Bill Jamesian data to back that up, keep in mind that Papi has now had 12 walk-off hits in the last four seasons. The most in that span of time. Seems like that is a very good definition of clutch. I know, I know there are guys with better averages with 2 outs with runners in scoring position or whatever, but the case is clear. This guy has single-handedly won 12 games with his bat, no one else has done that. Personally, I think "clutch" is completely coincidental. If you look, you'll probably see that Ortiz's stats with the opportunity to end the game are very similar to his stats at any other time. I mean, Alex Gonzalez hit a walk off home run to end a World Series game, but he's not considered "Clutch". Also, I think alot of Ortiz's walk off hits came because pitchers are more afraid of Manny than Ortiz (probably because he's a better hitter), and they'd rather try to beat Ortiz than Ramirez. Link to post Share on other sites
Duck-Billed Catechist Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 There's a situational/split stat on ESPN's site called "close and late". I'm not sure of the exact parameters of close and late, but I'm sure I could take a good guess. Anyway, Ortiz's stats in close and late positions this year:60 ABs 14 RBI, 9 HR, .317 AVG, .379 OBP, .817 SLG, and 1.196 OPS. Small sample size, but significantly better than the rest of his ABs this year. In his eleven bases loaded opportunities he's hitting .364 .385 1.091 1.476. From 2003-2005, close and late, he's .326 .408 .724 1.132 in 221 ABs. As opposed to .297 .383 .600 .983 overall during that time. Pretty hard to call that coincidental. Sure, teams don't want Manny Ramirez to beat them, but he bats in front of Manny for the whole game. Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted August 2, 2006 Author Share Posted August 2, 2006 There's a situational/split stat on ESPN's site called "close and late". I'm not sure of the exact parameters of close and late, but I'm sure I could take a good guess. Anyway, Ortiz's stats in close and late positions this year:60 ABs 14 RBI, 9 HR, .317 AVG, .379 OBP, .817 SLG, and 1.196 OPS. Small sample size, but significantly better than the rest of his ABs this year. In his eleven bases loaded opportunities he's hitting .364 .385 1.091 1.476. From 2003-2005, close and late, he's .326 .408 .724 1.132 in 221 ABs. As opposed to .297 .383 .600 .983 overall during that time. Pretty hard to call that coincidental. Sure, teams don't want Manny Ramirez to beat them, but he bats in front of Manny for the whole game. With RISP and 2 out, his OPS is .980. With RISP his OPS is 1.080. With runners on: 1.018With the bases empty: 1.011 Doesn't really imply that he's any better with runners on, which would seem the best definition of clutch, since there isn't really any statistics that show a player's stats in walk off or game winning situations. Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 papi=good at baseball Link to post Share on other sites
Duck-Billed Catechist Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 With RISP and 2 out, his OPS is .980. With RISP his OPS is 1.080. With runners on: 1.018With the bases empty: 1.011 Doesn't really imply that he's any better with runners on, which would seem the best definition of clutch, since there isn't really any statistics that show a player's stats in walk off or game winning situations.That's an aspect of clutch, not a definition. Here's ESPN's criteria for Close and Late: Close And Late - results in the 7th inning or later with the batting team either ahead by one run, tied or with the potential tying run at least on deck. Obviously Ortiz is very good in these situations. This is what most people are saying--that he's great late in close games..and that's backed up by the stats. You're just arguing semantics re: what is clutch and what isn't. Here's an example: Is it more clutch to hit a homerun with two runners on base in a 10-3 game, or to hit a solo shot in the bottom of the ninth in a tie game? Link to post Share on other sites
parisisstale Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Apparently, ARod is doing better than Ortiz in the "clutch" categories. A perfect example of how stats don't tell the whole story, even in baseball. This guy has single-handedly won 12 games with his bat, no one else has done that. That's all that matters. Link to post Share on other sites
Lammycat Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Personally, I think "clutch" is completely coincidental. If you look, you'll probably see that Ortiz's stats with the opportunity to end the game are very similar to his stats at any other time. I mean, Alex Gonzalez hit a walk off home run to end a World Series game, but he's not considered "Clutch". Also, I think alot of Ortiz's walk off hits came because pitchers are more afraid of Manny than Ortiz (probably because he's a better hitter), and they'd rather try to beat Ortiz than Ramirez.Alex Gonzalez hitting a walk-off to end a game in the WS is a great feat. But I wouldn't call him a "clutch" hitter as it happened a total of one time. Pitchers fear Manny, of course, but it's irrational to think pitchers consider Ortiz an easier out. Ortiz is doing things in game-winning situations on a regular basis. This is what makes him among (if not the) the best clutch hitters to ever swing a bat. Ortiz is currently as dominant and feared in the batter's box as any other hitter to play the game. It ain't hype if it's legitimate. Link to post Share on other sites
Duck-Billed Catechist Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Alex Rodriguez's "close and late" numbers this year. 57 AB. Are you ready? You sure? OPS .621. Link to post Share on other sites
awatt Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 I hate baseball and could give a shit about the Braves. Can we have a thread on pro football, when the time comes (not a Falcons fan either, but love those Seahawks)? Carry on... Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Yeah, there will be an NFL thread for sure. Won't be as fun as this one though! Link to post Share on other sites
cryptique Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Yeah, there will be an NFL thread for sure. Won't be as fun as this one though!It might, if fewer obscure stats are thrown around. Link to post Share on other sites
parisisstale Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 It might, if fewer obscure stats are thrown around. Amen Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Hey, it's not my fault that traditional baseball stats are inadaquate in evaluating players. Football is a sport where the right stats to use are a little more obvious, and the traditional ones are a little more spot on. Link to post Share on other sites
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