MrRain422 Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 Trying to find all time WARP/VORP leaders but having some trouble. Can anyone help? Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 I'd go Mays and probably even Cobb before Mantle, overall. I just can't see that. That would require putting more emphasis on Mays' defense and the years he spent later in his career padding his stats than I am really comfortable with. I mean, he had 25% more plate appearances than Mantle, so that pretty makes up for the difference in counting stats. Much of Mays' legacy is based on 2 things: 660 and his defense. 660 vs. 523 is not insignificant, but neither is .424 vs. .384, which are their OBPs. They had identical slugging percentages, and Mantle played in a more favorable offensive environment to boot. Basically, the only way I can put Mays above Mantle is if I give him extra credit for the 100 home runs he hit from 36-41 when he wasn't close to the player he was in his prime and if I put him so far above Mantle defensively that it's basically the difference between Andruw Jones and Juan Pierre. I can't do that. WARP agrees with you, Lammy, as it has Mays at 235 for his career to Mantle's 178, but 68 of that is defense for Mays, compared to 25 for Mantle. Was Mays 3 times more valuable than Mantle defensively? I don't see it. Link to post Share on other sites
MattZ Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 Basically, the only way I can put Mays above Mantle is if I give him extra credit for the 100 home runs he hit from 36-41 when he wasn't close to the player he was in his prime Ok, but you aren't giving him any credit, let alone extra credit. The guy still hit 140 more home runs. Yes, Mantle was slowed by injuries, but that's part of his package. Link to post Share on other sites
jenbobblehead Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 Let me tell you sompsing: BOSTON (AP) Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 Ok, but you aren't giving him any credit, let alone extra credit. The guy still hit 140 more home runs. Yes, Mantle was slowed by injuries, but that's part of his package. I understand it was part of his package, I still think Mantle was the better player. They had identical slugging percentages, and Mantle actually hit home runs at a better pace than Mays, and Mantle has a much higher OBP. So it's a question of which do you value more: Longevity or peak. I'll take Mantle's peak over Mays' career length. Really looking at it, they were pretty remarkably similar offensive players with one exception: Mantle walked a hell of a lot more. Link to post Share on other sites
Twisted Acres Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 Going with Say-Hey on that one. Mantle was brilliant, but I'm pretty confident that if you ask their peers, or folks who saw them play, nearly all of them would take Mays over Mantle. The elder statesmen in my family (even the Yankee fans) always ranked those legendary mid-1950s NY centerfielders in this order: Mays - Mantle - Snider. I wish they were still around to chat about it more... my grandfather adored Mays & Clemente. Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 I won't deny that if you were asking who I would rather watch play, it's gonna be Mays. The style of ball he played was extremely exciting, and I don't have any doubts if you asked who was the better player just from watching them play, almost anyone would say Mays. But looking at their production only, Mantle was the better player in my opinion. Clemente is another player who is more respected by people who watched him than people who strictly look at his stats. Maybe there's something to that, but I still side with what the stats say, especially with players I never got to see. Link to post Share on other sites
Lammycat Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 Mantle and Mays are really very evenly matched, especially considering they played in the same time frame (for the most part- Mays outlasted him). A case can be made for either if you compare actual years-really see-saw back and forth starting in 1951. It's been said that Mantle's three best seasons ('56, '57, and '61) were better than Mays' best season (1965). Mays was overall better than Mantle (had consistantly better seasons than Mantle) during the time span, though. Also, Mays could still play and contribute in his final years compared to Mantle, who became a shell of his former self due to the bad legs, etc. I'd say Mays had the better (more productive?) career, by a nose. Link to post Share on other sites
Lammycat Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 BTW, there's a very nice documentary this month on Mantle if you anyone gets "On Demand." Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 I really don't have any problem with someone ranking Mays ahead, this is just my opinion and they are so close that it can really go either way. Basically, because they are so evenly matched, it comes down to Mantle's On base skills and peak years against Willie's defense and longevity. Link to post Share on other sites
caliber66 Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 Also, Mays could still play and contribute in his final years compared to Mantle, who became a shell of his former self due to the bad legs, etc.You misspelled "liver." Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 He did have some seriously bad legs too though. Link to post Share on other sites
caliber66 Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 He did have some seriously bad legs too though.You forgot to add "from drinking so much alcohol!" Hah! Link to post Share on other sites
rareair Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 the mets bullpen is awful. Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Third blown save in a row by Wagner. Another bad sign in a season full of bad signs. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jules Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Edmonds ties it up in the bottom of the ninth with a homer. He could not play another game for the Cubs and he has already been worth the investment. Link to post Share on other sites
rareair Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Edmonds ties it up in the bottom of the ninth with a homer. He could not play another game for the Cubs and he has already been worth the investment. i have to agree as much as i hate to do that. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jules Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Wow. Ridgeway comes in with the bases loaded, bottom of the 11th. First pitch, hits Reed Johnson to force in the winning run. Cubs squeak out another one. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Moses Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Wow. Ridgeway comes in with the bases loaded, bottom of the 11th. First pitch, hits Reed Johnson to force in the winning run. Cubs squeak out another one. that was a wonderful ending. pat hughes absolutely lost it. Link to post Share on other sites
Moe_Syzlak Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Crazy that they quoted Brickhouse's "any run will do" earlier in the inning on WGN. ETA: Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Randolph, couple coaches could be on the way out in Queens By Jon Heyman, SI.com Willie Randolph's status as Mets manager is extremely tenuous now. General manager Omar Minaya is seriously considering changing managers and at least a couple of the team's coaches, sources told SI.com. A Mets official indicated that nothing was expected to be decided today regarding Randolph's status. But that doesn't preclude something from happening later this weekend. Front-office sources indicate his hold on the job is shaky, at best. Should Randolph be fired, bench coach Jerry Manuel will take over, sources told SI.com. Minaya and other club higher-ups met Thursday to discuss the deteriorating fortunes of the team and what can be done about it. Minaya is considered extremely loyal by co-workers and has been Randolph's greatest supporter for weeks. As one Mets person put it, "Willie's his guy.'' However, Randolph's detractors have become more vocal in recent days, and there seems to be a general feeling that something major needs to be done to reinvigorate the club. Mets people believe they can't start completely anew and would prefer to at least employ someone who's witnessed the first portion of the schedule up close. Manuel, a former Manager of the Year with the White Sox, would be given the season to see whether he can turn things around. Minaya is said weighing changes that could also include hitting coach Howard Johnson and pitching coach Rick Peterson, sources indicate. Some organization people believe sweeping changes must be tried in order to jump-start the disappointing team. Triple-A New Orleans pitching coach Dan Warthen would be a candidate to take over for Peterson. Link to post Share on other sites
Duck-Billed Catechist Posted June 13, 2008 Author Share Posted June 13, 2008 I really like Manuel. He was hated in Chicago by the end of his tenure for 1. Being Gandhi-like2. Underachieving. Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 I really like Manuel. He was hated in Chicago by the end of his tenure for 1. Being Gandhi-like2. Underachieving.Well, fuck him, then. (No offense - I'm sure he's a wonderful human being and all.) The Mets need a raving, upholstery-chewing, base-humping, obscenity-spewing, umpire-berating, shit-throwing lunatic, not Mohandas K. Link to post Share on other sites
Duck-Billed Catechist Posted June 13, 2008 Author Share Posted June 13, 2008 Well, fuck him, then. (No offense - I'm sure he's a wonderful human being and all.) The Mets need a raving, upholstery-chewing, base-humping, obscenity-spewing, umpire-berating, shit-throwing lunatic, not Mohandas K.He got thrown out of a lot of games one year because people complained and he played the part. Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 He got thrown out of a lot of games one year because people complained and he played the part.I give him props for getting thrown out of the Yankees game where Delgado was robbed of the homer, but really, that's Willie's job. Link to post Share on other sites
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