MattZ Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 We are through bleedorange. It's over between us. Link to post Share on other sites
bleedorange Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 We are through bleedorange. It's over between us. Damn. One post too far. Link to post Share on other sites
caliber66 Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Well, I don't really have a problem with players wearing protective gear (especially those who tend to foul the ball off their feet a lot because that shit HURTS), but again, I don't see any need for pitchers to "protect" hitters who wear protective gear because they tend to get hit a lot due to the way they choose to address the plate. I also don't really see what is so much more manly about throwing a ball 90 MPH at someone from 60 feet away than meeting the pitcher at the mound to discuss your differences. I think both are stupid. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jules Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I'm with you on the protective gear. But, I've got to be honest, I would just rather see a DH in both leagues at this point. You grow up with a DH in high school and college and the NL is still hanging on to this antiquated notion. Get some power into the lineup. Power? The National League hits just as many home runs as the American League. (please disregard the 2 extra teams) Link to post Share on other sites
bleedorange Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Well, I don't really have a problem with players wearing protective gear (especially those who tend to foul the ball off their feet a lot because that shit HURTS), but again, I don't see any need for pitchers to "protect" hitters who wear protective gear because they tend to get hit a lot due to the way they choose to address the plate. I also don't really see what is so much more manly about throwing a ball 90 MPH at someone from 60 feet away than meeting the pitcher at the mound to discuss your differences. I think both are stupid. I think the protective gear being referred to is pads on the elbows and arms. I don't think anyone has a problem with the stuff around the feet or ankles. At least, I don't. Link to post Share on other sites
MattZ Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I think the protective gear being referred to is pads on the elbows and arms. I don't think anyone has a problem with the stuff around the feet or ankles. At least, I don't. Yes, this is what I meant. Link to post Share on other sites
Oil Can Boyd Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Just got back from the Red Sox-Tigers game (where I walked in behind David Duchovny).Man, Justin Verlander is a stud. He was still throwing 100 mph in the 8th ... Link to post Share on other sites
caliber66 Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 I still don't have a problem with batters wearing protective gear on their elbows. If they get hit, they get hit, and if they get hit while their elbow is over the plate, call it a strike. If it's inside, but they fail to make an attempt to get out of the way, call it a ball. Catchers wear gear to protect them from pitched balls. Batters wear helmets for the same reason. What does it hurt to allow them to protect their arms as well as their heads (and ankles)? Link to post Share on other sites
MattZ Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 There need to be little things in baseball to keep the balance. To keep players honest. The arm gear gives guys like Cabrera the cahones to crowd the plate and lean out over it without the thought in the back of his mind that this might hurt, or result in injury. Doing so without fear gives them an unfair advantage because it not only takes away the inside strike, but because it allows them to cover the outside part of the plate. And that's why I dont have a problem with a pitcher retaliating for something like that. You may be on to something if your point is that umps should call a pitch that hits a batter, a strike. But we all know they don't, and frankly, they won't. Batters shouldn't wear armor, and pitchers should hit. Then let's see where Cabrera stands when he is batting. And let's see if Porcello throws at Youkilis. Link to post Share on other sites
John Smith Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 There were players who made a living off of crowding the plate, Ron Hunt and Don Baylor come to mind as two guys who leaned out over it and took it often. Hunt I believe was hit 50+ times more than once in his career and this with no protective gear and with the old style helmets that didn't cover the exposed ear. Regardless it has been part of the game forever. Link to post Share on other sites
MattZ Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 There were players who made a living off of crowding the plate, Ron Hunt and Don Baylor come to mind as two guys who leaned out over it and took it often. Hunt I believe was hit 50+ times more than once in his career and this with no protective gear and with the old style helmets that didn't cover the exposed ear. Regardless it has been part of the game forever. I dont begrudge someone crowding the plate. My problem is when guys crowd the plate because they are wearing protective gear. If you are going to crowd the plate to try to get an advantage, you should pay the price if you get hit. What sort of price does a guy with a huge arm guard pay? Link to post Share on other sites
KevinG Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Not trying to resurrect yesterday's discussion (not re: Tuesday's specific incident, anyway), but the "pitchers hitting as a deterrent to HBP" angle doesn't hold up, really. There's no discernible difference in HBP rates between the two leagues, and as we know, pitchers only bat in one league. AL, HBPs per game:2009 - .322008 - .362007 - .362006 - .352005 - .362004 - .40 NL, HBPs per game:2009 - .342008 - .332007 - .362006 - .402005 - .382004 - .36 Now, if you're suggesting that pitchers should hit because at least then the right person might be targeted for retaliation, then you may be onto something. Craig Biggio played in the NL so I would imagine those numbers are a bit skewed Link to post Share on other sites
bleedorange Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Fairly big series in Texas this weekend. I think it's Millwood vs. Lester tonight. Link to post Share on other sites
caliber66 Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 There need to be little things in baseball to keep the balance. To keep players honest. The arm gear gives guys like Cabrera the cahones to crowd the plate and lean out over it without the thought in the back of his mind that this might hurt, or result in injury. Doing so without fear gives them an unfair advantage because it not only takes away the inside strike, but because it allows them to cover the outside part of the plate. And that's why I dont have a problem with a pitcher retaliating for something like that. I dont begrudge someone crowding the plate. My problem is when guys crowd the plate because they are wearing protective gear. If you are going to crowd the plate to try to get an advantage, you should pay the price if you get hit. What sort of price does a guy with a huge arm guard pay?Well, that's the point. Cabrera crowded the plate and got hit twice by inside, but not egregious - and certainly not intentional - pitches. Youkilis got hit by pitches directed at the middle of his back. The Cabrera HBPs were not "retaliation". I really don't care that much either way about the elbow pads, but I agree that they make batters more likely to crowd the plate. And I agree that something needs to be done about it - either correctly call the pitches that strike batters who are out of position or fail to make an attempt to avoid the pitch, or ban the pads on otherwise healthy players (players with arm injuries should be allowed to wear the pad, a la Rip Hamilton). But my original point still stands - if a player gets hit by a non-intentional pitch because of the way he chooses to address the plate (whether or not he's wearing body armor), then there should be no retaliation from the other pitching staff. That, IMO, is bad baseball. Link to post Share on other sites
bigshoulders Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Salary Crunch: Manny RamirezFind out how long it takes Manny to make your annual salary. Ouch. Link to post Share on other sites
MattZ Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 But my original point still stands - if a player gets hit by a non-intentional pitch because of the way he chooses to address the plate (whether or not he's wearing body armor), then there should be no retaliation from the other pitching staff. That, IMO, is bad baseball. Your original point may still stand, but so does mine. First off, you don't know for certain that it was non-intentional. But let's say it wasn't intentional for argument's sake. Why is it bad baseball for the Tigers to try to intimidate Boston players/pitchers so that Boston pitchers make sure they don't come anywhere NEAR Cabrera the next time he comes up to bat? Doesn't that benefit the Tigers? Maybe we just have a different definition of "bad baseball" but everyone is looking for an edge. This just strikes me as the Tigers looking for an edge. Which is good baseball. Link to post Share on other sites
MattZ Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 And my larger point certainly still stands, which is that Cabrera wouldn't do what he does without armor, and Porcello wouldn't either, if he had to hit. Probably. Maybe. Link to post Share on other sites
caliber66 Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Your original point may still stand, but so does mine. First off, you don't know for certain that it was non-intentional. But let's say it wasn't intentional for argument's sake. Why is it bad baseball for the Tigers to try to intimidate Boston players/pitchers so that Boston pitchers make sure they don't come anywhere NEAR Cabrera the next time he comes up to bat? Doesn't that benefit the Tigers? Maybe we just have a different definition of "bad baseball" but everyone is looking for an edge. This just strikes me as the Tigers looking for an edge. Which is good baseball.I am certain (enough) that the Boston pitchers intended to throw inside. I would bet my life that Junichi Tazawa did not intentionally hit Miguel Cabrera with a 0-2 pitch barely off the plate with two on and nobody out in the first inning of his first Major League start. It is certainly possible, however unlikely, that Brad Penney intentionally hit Miguel Cabrera with another pitch that was barely off the plate as he was leading off the fourth inning of a game Boston was leading 4-0. Maybe he was pissed about Placido Polanco showboating about his bloop single the previous inning. Again, both pitches that hit Youkilis were fastballs that were aimed between his numbers. They weren't mistakes. Are steroids and spitballs and nail files good baseball? And my larger point certainly still stands, which is that Cabrera wouldn't do what he does without armor, and Porcello wouldn't either, if he had to hit. Probably. Maybe.Cabrera, maybe. National League pitchers throw at batters just as often as American League pitchers. Link to post Share on other sites
MattZ Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 I am certain (enough) that the Boston pitchers intended to throw inside. I would bet my life that Junichi Tazawa did not intentionally hit Miguel Cabrera with a 0-2 pitch barely off the plate with two on and nobody out in the first inning of his first Major League start. It is certainly possible, however unlikely, that Brad Penney intentionally hit Miguel Cabrera with another pitch that was barely off the plate as he was leading off the fourth inning of a game Boston was leading 4-0. Maybe he was pissed about Placido Polanco showboating about his bloop single the previous inning. Again, both pitches that hit Youkilis were fastballs that were aimed between his numbers. They weren't mistakes. Are steroids and spitballs and nail files good baseball? Look, I granted to you for purposes of this argument that we could assume that Cabrera was hit unintentionally. So, let's leave aside your first paragraph. Are you really comparing steroids/spitballs/nail files to pitchers intimidating players by throwing inside/hitting them? Really? EDIT: and to answer your question, no, cheating is not good baseball. Link to post Share on other sites
caliber66 Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 I'm just saying that the other things I mentioned are used by players trying to get an edge. Intentionally hitting players is part of baseball, and it's not going away. I don't like it, and that's fine. EDIT: and to answer your question, no, cheating is not good baseball.Last I checked, intentionally throwing at batters is against the rules. Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Stewart Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 I will likely be in Miller Park tonight for a beisbol game! Link to post Share on other sites
MattZ Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 I'm just saying that the other things I mentioned are used by players trying to get an edge. Intentionally hitting players is part of baseball, and it's not going away. I don't like it, and that's fine. Last I checked, intentionally throwing at batters is against the rules. Ok, I see what you are getting at (now). I still think it is a stretch to say that intentionally throwing at players, even if against the rules, is cheating. We've beaten this horse enough, so let's move on. Link to post Share on other sites
caliber66 Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Just coming in to say let's agree to disagree. Link to post Share on other sites
MattZ Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Yes, I have not surrendered. I have just agreed to disagree. Do we get a room now? Link to post Share on other sites
rareair Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 did anyone see prince fielder's home run to center last night? good lord. dented the centerfield scoreboard and all. Link to post Share on other sites
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