Politics 2015

[Atticus]

interesting that Black Lives Matter folks are interrupting Sanders' events.

[jff]

That's a myth that needs to die.

It's an undisputable fact that Nader got votes that would otherwise have gone to Gore. That's not a myth, and your link agrees. You're responding as if KevinG said "Gore lost because Nader took his votes."

interesting that Black Lives Matter folks are interrupting Sanders' events.

What those two people did is pathetic, ignorant, and counterproductive.

[Winston Legthigh]

It's an undisputable fact that Nader got votes that would otherwise have gone to Gore. That's not a myth, and your link agrees. You're responding as if KevinG said "Gore lost because Nader took his votes."

Nader also "took" votes that would otherwise have gone to Bush. Buchanan also "took" votes that would have gone to either Gore or Bush, (or perhaps, if confronted with the only options of Bush or Gore, the voter would have stayed home, as over 50% do on any given election year) as did every other non GOP/Dem candidate that year.

 

But the only person who gets villainized over what happened in the 2000 election is Nader.

[Doug C]

I agree about Nader getting blamed. There were several reasons why the actual winner of the 2000 presidential election wasn't inaugurated, Nader was the least of them. You could make the case that the lion's share of blame goes to whoever approved the butterfly ballot in West Palm Beach. I think that it was close to 30,00 votes disqualified. 

Jesus H. Christ.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/heavily-armed-oath-keepers-inject-new-unease-to-riot-hit-ferguson/ar-BBlDm8L

[uncool2pillow]

The real winner was inaugurated. Period. You can blame the electoral college for the person who won the most votes not winning, but Bush won more votes in Florida.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/12/politics/12VOTE.html

[jff]

Nader also "took" votes that would otherwise have gone to Bush. Buchanan also "took" votes that would have gone to either Gore or Bush, (or perhaps, if confronted with the only options of Bush or Gore, the voter would have stayed home, as over 50% do on any given election year) as did every other non GOP/Dem candidate that year.

 

But the only person who gets villainized over what happened in the 2000 election is Nader.

I am not disputing any of that. There's a difference between "Nader got votes that would have gone to Gore" and "Nader cost Gore the election." Your link is a response to the second claim, but the person you responded to only made the first claim.

[Doug C]

I read that back then. My point is that if not for a confusing ballot in one county, Gore would have easily made up the 225 vote margin that the NY times analysis found existed. Nearly 20,000 ballots were disqualified for double punches. I am confident that at least 226 of those were Gore voters that realized they punched Buchanan in error. 

[Winston Legthigh]

I am not disputing any of that. There's a difference between "Nader got votes that would have gone to Gore" and "Nader cost Gore the election." Your link is a response to the second claim, but the person you responded to only made the first claim.

The first claim says that Nader took votes from the Dems and not the GOP. That is an ill-informed myth. 

 

Here. or here.

[jff]

The first claim says that Nader took votes from the Dems and not the GOP. That is an ill-informed myth. 

 

Here. or here.

Well, that's beyond bizarre. Thanks a lot Florida Democrats. Catholicism really fucks people up.

[lost highway]

interesting that Black Lives Matter folks are interrupting Sanders' events.

 

Not exactly.  They're not what you'd call a top-down organization.

This petition, created by #BlackLivesMatter activists, demands that Marissa Johnson and Mara Willaford publicly apologize to Bernie Sanders.

Johnson and Willaford are the women who interrupted Bernie Sanders’ speech during a social security rally in Seattle and accused the audience of “white supremacist liberalism.”

#BlackLivesMatter activists believe that this type of behavior is inappropriate and counterproductive, and we will not support it.

 

[Winston Legthigh]

Catholicism really fucks people up.

[lost highway]

It's interesting that Jeb is the only serious contender for the GOP who's admitted that climate change is real, affected by humans, and says there should be policy to address it.

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/08/11/429781692/where-presidential-candidates-stand-on-climate-change

[KevinG]

The first claim says that Nader took votes from the Dems and not the GOP. That is an ill-informed myth. 

 

Here. or here.

 

 

It was never my intention to say that Nader cost Gore the election.  My intent was to show how third party candidates or fringe candidates are often extreme and will pull votes from establishment candidates.  Third party candidates do not pull in new voters.  They take and divide the already small voting population.  

 

There are probably going to be about 240 million eligible voters in 2016.  With about 130 million actual votes cast.  Which means 90 million people will not have their voice heard.  Obama got 65 million votes, Romney got 60 million.  Say for example a moderate third party candidate took a 15 million from the dems, 15 million from GOP and 15 million from those who do not vote, that would win.  Yes that is a lot of votes to pull from either side, but the key would be the non voting electorate.  

[Winston Legthigh]

My initial link was a poor example of trying to refute what you had said, but it's nigh impossible to find a source that merely discusses the myth of Nader taking votes away from Gore, without it discussing the "stolen" election of 2000 as a whole. It's all part of the whole story, and Nader's legacy has been tarnished by infuriated Dems who have to place blame on everything BUT their putz of a candidate: Gore.

 

But if you looked at either of those two sites, you'll see that Nader's voters were people who mostly voted for Ross Perot in Clinton's first election. The people who vote for third party candidates either continue to vote for third party candidates, or they stay home. 

 

As a liberal voter myself, I'm not looking forward to Hillary's nomination. I think she's an opportunist who is obsessed with her own legacy. 

[jff]

Who did Gore beat to become the nominee? John Edwards? Kucinich? Who else? That whole era feels like ancient history.

[Winston Legthigh]

Who did Gore beat to become the nominee? John Edwards? Kucinich? Who else? That whole era feels like ancient history.

Bill Bradley and Lyndon LaRouche were the only candidates that were up against Gore in the primary.

[jff]

Bill Bradley and Lyndon LaRouche were the only candidates that were up against Gore in the primary.

No wonder I forgot. I'm pretty sure I crossed over that year and voted for McCain in an attempt to thwart W. Bush. I wonder how a McCain presidency would have worked out.

[Winston Legthigh]

I've never voted in a primary, nor have I ever registered with a Party. Have been seriously contemplating registering as a Republican to vote for Trump in the primary.

[jff]

I've never voted in a primary, nor have I ever registered with a Party. Have been seriously contemplating registering as a Republican to vote for Trump in the primary.

I live in a state that allows you to vote in the primary without being registered with a party. It's one of the few things about Georgia politics/elections that I like.

[KevinG]

Today, the Governor of Wisconsin and the GOP controlled legislature officially put its priorities front and center.  They are willing to tax its citizens for a private sports team (and donors to Walker's presidential PAC) to the tune of 250 million dollars or more.  But will cut funding to public education and other infrastructure.  

 

http://www.channel3000.com/news/politics/gov-walker-signs-bucks-arena-deal/34671700

 

Priorities!  

[John Smith]

I hate publicly funded stadiums.  Its never  good deal to the taxpayer.  I am a White Sox fan and would have been fine with them leaving back when St Pete was bidding for them.  But no instead we get a stadium that is not making any money for the taxpayers.  And...the bonds issued to fund it have tax free income.  They are muni Bonds, which are exempt from fed tax and Illinois does not tax the income either. so double screwing the tax payer.  

[KevinG]

I hate publicly funded stadiums.  Its never  good deal to the taxpayer.  I am a White Sox fan and would have been fine with them leaving back when St Pete was bidding for them.  But no instead we get a stadium that is not making any money for the taxpayers.  And...the bonds issued to fund it have tax free income.  They are muni Bonds, which are exempt from fed tax and Illinois does not tax the income either. so double screwing the tax payer.  

 

I don't mind publicly funded stadiums and projects.  They do bring in money and can help vitalize an area.  However what galls me is the sheer hypocrisy of governor Walker.  He is saying it is alright to increase taxes to pay for this arena, but we will not increase taxes to pay for schools or roads or other things to help all of Wisconsin.  The return on investment for these things surly outweighs the return on investment of this new arena.  

 

Also US Cellular is one of the worst baseball stadiums I have been too.   

[Winston Legthigh]

Also US Cellular is one of the worst baseball stadiums I have been too.   

 

How so? I'm no fan of the White Sox (my inlaws are). But I've been to many games there. The stadium itself is fine - it's open, you can walk around, it has decent food options... The neighborhood on the other hand... There's nothing to do around there. You get there and get into the stadium, and when the game's over, you get the hell out. 

[calvino]

How so? I'm no fan of the White Sox (my inlaws are). But I've been to many games there. The stadium itself is fine - it's open, you can walk around, it has decent food options... The neighborhood on the other hand... There's nothing to do around there. You get there and get into the stadium, and when the game's over, you get the hell out. 

 

Perhaps KevinG went to the Cell before they redesign it. They did make improvements. The neighborhood is coming around a little, over the last 5-7 or so years. Still nothing like the north-side - neighborhood wise, but that's not such a bad thing. It's nice that a Metra train station was finally built on 35th, too.

[KevinG]

Perhaps KevinG went to the Cell before they redesign it. They did make improvements. The neighborhood is coming around a little, over the last 5-7 or so years. Still nothing like the north-side - neighborhood wise, but that's not such a bad thing. It's nice that a Metra train station was finally built on 35th, too.

 

I was there about a month ago.  I travel for my work and take the opportunity to check out baseball stadiums.  I have been to 10 so far.  This is what I did not like about US Cellular.

 

1) Getting to the Park.  I was in the west burbs and thought I would take the PACE bus to the park.  Didn't look closely that the PACE bus only makes one round and left my stop at 4:45 pm for a 7:10 game.  Would have thought it would have made a couple of stops or trips for people who actually work for a living.  So then I had to drive the Cell and pay 20 bucks for parking.  So that was annoying.  Yes I should have taken the Metra or whatever, but it just seemed unfathomable to me that the PACE bus only made one stop.  

 

2) Tickets.  Generally I will go down to the park and get whatever tickets are available from scalpers.  I have had some great luck with tickets for pretty cheap.  However at US Cellular there were hardly any scalpers and the prices they were asking for was outrageous 80 bucks for mid level seats.  This was  mid week game, not a high profile game.  So whatever, I when the box office and got an upper deck seat for pretty cheap.  

 

3) The Stadium.  Ok first of all, when I go to a new park, I like to walk around get sense of the ball park and the people.  Check out all the different types of food, etc.  Little did I know when you buy an upper deck ticket you are held captive in the upper deck and cannot go to any other part of the park.  This is frustrating.  Out of the 10 parks I went to this is the only one that does this.  I understand if it was a sold out game, but it wasn't that full.  

 

4) The food.  Because the stadium was not full some of the vendors where closed and I could not get to other vendors which looked better then my choices in the upperdeck (see point 3).  The food wasn't bad, it was just nothing special.  

 

5) The views.  The site lines to the field are good, but in the upperdeck I felt really far away.  The views to the scoreboards were good, but the information they showed on there was inconsequential and meaningless to the game.  Also there was a couple of panels on the old scoreboard that was broken and glitchy.  Ownership has to have enough respect for the fans to fix that.  Also the outfield looks out over some warehouses and apartment buildings, which is not that attractive to look at.   If you were to turn the whole park 90 degrees or so you would have a view of the skyline of Chicago with a great sunset.  

 

So yeah I don't like the Cell.  I am sure it is different if you are fan of the team, but as a baseball fan who loves to go to different parks, it just left me feeling uninspired and kinda annoyed.