Hixter Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 It's a law with wording that could allow businesses to discriminate like that and your response is wait and see?With "could" being the operative word here, as the law doesn't take effect for 3 months and nobody (including the author of the article) seems to agree on what it might or might not actually do. If someone were actually discriminated against, he/she would file a suit and it would work its way up to the Supreme Court, if necessary. If the law is found unconstitutional, it gets thrown out. That's how things typically work in this country. As I've said in another thread, the solution to our nation's problems isn't more laws. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hwllo Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 With "could" being the operative word here, as the law doesn't take effect for 3 months and nobody (including the author of the article) seems to agree on what it might or might not actually do. If someone were actually discriminated against, he/she would file a suit and it would work its way up to the Supreme Court, if necessary. If the law is found unconstitutional, it gets thrown out. That's how things typically work in this country. As I've said in another thread, the solution to our nation's problems isn't more laws. But what kind of attitude is that? Isn't it best to fix a problem before it happens if given the opportunity? If we can all that this CLEARLY could become an issue, why not try and work it out now rather than wait until people are hurt by it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 But what kind of attitude is that? Isn't it best to fix a problem before it happens if given the opportunity?First you have to be certain that there is a problem, and right now nobody can agree that there is. I prefer to let the courts decide what is constitutional -- not politicians, religions, activists, nor rock and roll bands. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hwllo Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 First you have to be certain that there is a problem, and right now nobody can agree that there is. I prefer to let the courts decide what is constitutional -- not politicians, religions, activists, nor rock and roll bands. I just seriously feel like you're being dense on purpose or just missing the point. And how is Wilco deciding what is constitutional? They don't agree with the wording on that law, and they choose not to play. If slavery was still legal in certain states would you have an issue with them CHOOSING not to play in those states? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kidsmoke Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Woah, really? It's a law with wording that could allow businesses to discriminate like that and your response is wait and see? Seriously, what's wrong with you? Let's not call out vague wording on a bill that could allow such a thing until people are actually discriminated against? WowFolks, let's refrain from personal insults and try to make our points without behaving offensively. We're adults here and hopefully capable of reasoned discussion. (So there's no misunderstanding, I say this to everyone involved in this thread, not directed at anyone in particular.) Hwllo, your post had me thinking that I can't fully appreciate some things....not being black, I can't imagine completely what it feels like to be racially profiled during a routine traffic stop. I know as a woman that even the most sensitive male can't quite get inside how it feels to be a woman who needs to walk somewhere alone in the dark...but every single woman knows what I'm talking about. In the case of this law, I can only imagine the sense of degradation and inferiority that would be in my heart as I went about my ordinary life, if I were gay and living under this law...perhaps running simple errands in the company of my spouse, never knowing when or if we would be turned out of some business for the "crime" of being who I was born as. I try to imagine the hurt, the humiliation, the outrage, the need to object coupled with the fear of having to do so (I'm an introvert...start a lawsuit?! ) (Though I hope I wouldn't shrink from it either)....all of this is horrifying in my imagination, and that's only imagination. The reality must be so much more hard and bitter, and the sense of being betrayed by a country I love and support would be very hard to take. I don't think anyone should have to live in this country in 2015 with that sort of ugliness hounding their every public footstep. I don't know how well I'm saying this, but the idea of living under such a cloud until some brave soul chases it through the courts is incredibly reprehensible to me. Try to imagine if it were you, or someone you love. I'm so proud of Wilco for being willing to object to this ugly law. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hwllo Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Folks, let's refrain from personal insults and try to make our points without behaving offensively. We're adults here and hopefully capable of reasoned discussion. (So there's no misunderstanding, I say this to everyone involved in this thread, not directed at anyone in particular.) Hwllo, your post had me thinking that I can't fully appreciate some things....not being black, I can't imagine completely what it feels like to be racially profiled during a routine traffic stop. I know as a woman that even the most sensitive male can't quite get inside how it feels to be a woman who needs to walk somewhere alone in the dark...but every single woman knows what I'm talking about. In the case of this law, I can only imagine the sense of degradation and inferiority that would be in my heart as I went about my ordinary life, if I were gay and living under this law...perhaps running simple errands in the company of my spouse, never knowing when or if we would be turned out of some business for the "crime" of being who I was born as. I try to imagine the hurt, the humiliation, the outrage, the need to object coupled with the fear of having to do so (I'm an introvert...start a lawsuit?! ) (Though I hope I wouldn't shrink from it either)....all of this is horrifying in my imagination, and that's only imagination. The reality must be so much more hard and bitter, and the sense of being betrayed by a country I love and support would be very hard to take. I don't think anyone should have to live in this country in 2015 with that sort of ugliness hounding their every public footstep. I don't know how well I'm saying this, but the idea of living under such a cloud until some brave soul chases it through the courts is incredibly reprehensible to me. Try to imagine if it were you, or someone you love. I'm so proud of Wilco for being willing to object to this ugly law. Well said, and I don't mean to make insults personal, it just seems like an obvious choice to fix something before it becomes a problem, rather than to wait and see. Why wait and see? If the language indeed is not meant to give businesses the right to refuse service to people that are gay people, then it's an easy choice to tidy up that phrasing and make it clear. However, because so many people don't want that changed, that leads me to believe that they know exactly what that language is intended for. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I just seriously feel like you're being dense on purpose or just missing the point.Everything comes down to partisan politics and it nauseates me. Republicans pass a law and Democrats and left-leaning groups react as if it's the end of the world and warn that people and the Constitution will be trampled underfoot. Then Democrats pass a law and Republicans and right-leaning groups react as if it's the end of the world and warn that people and the Constitution will be trampled underfoot. It's so predictable and gross. But the two parties want everyone to be a single-issue voter because it makes obtaining votes easier. So Democrats will paint Republicans as racist, Bible-thumping, gay-haters who would sell their souls for corporate America, and Republicans will paint Democrats as baby killers who want to teach kids to be homosexuals while hating America and sucking up to communists and Islamists. And how is Wilco deciding what is constitutional? They don't agree with the wording on that law, and they choose not to play.They can play, or not play, anywhere they'd like. I know they're a genuinely nice group of guys. But when you have Jeff Tweedy performing benefits for President Obama and berating the Bush administration from the stage (both well within his rights, of course) his silence about Obama's transgressions speaks volumes and makes him look like just another "my team is better than your team" kind of person that grosses me out when it comes to politics. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 If the language indeed is not meant to give businesses the right to refuse service to people that are gay people, then it's an easy choice to tidy up that phrasing and make it clear.I'm not really following the news about it, but I think that's exactly what the governor has asked for, is it not? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kidsmoke Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Pence is only caving to the pressure, so good for all who have helped to put pressure on him. Hwllo, in no way was my "no personal insults" comment directed at you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Robby Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 The Stones, too. They are playing there this summer, and they don't give a shit about American politics. Lester Holt told me tonight that the average age of the Rolling Stones is greater than the average age of the Supreme Court.Now that's something to get upset about! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pot Kettle Black Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I am very proud of Wilco for their decision and like I said on FB, sure I would be upset it they cancelled in my home town, but I would get over it pretty quick. They are standing up for people's rights and I back them for that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CCRGMac Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I don't think this has been posted here yet. It's the best piece I've read on the subject. http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2015/03/wilco-and-the-concern-trolls-tweedy-and-co-cancel.html I think there's only two of us on this thread who actually had tickets and so were personally affected. Here's my take, C&P from the Paste article comments:Colin Macqueen • 5 hours agoAs one of the ticket holders who's being "punished" or "discriminated against", I'd like to say that I fully understand Wilco's decision and I support it. While I'll be disappointed to miss the show, that's a small price to pay for affecting change in this world. When I think of all the South African fruit that I didn't buy in the 70s and 80s, I can see clearly how these things work. My ticket refund will go straight to the Human Rights Campaign.Just don't paint us all with the same brush. Please. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kidsmoke Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Sometimes I wish VC had a "like" button. Good for you, Colin. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Passenger Sid Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 They can play, or not play, anywhere they'd like. I know they're a genuinely nice group of guys. But when you have Jeff Tweedy performing benefits for President Obama and berating the Bush administration from the stage (both well within his rights, of course) his silence about Obama's transgressions speaks volumes and makes him look like just another "my team is better than your team" kind of person that grosses me out when it comes to politics. Couldn't agree more. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jw harding Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Good old media and liberals, distorting things conservatives say by quoting them directly with context: http://web.archive.org/web/20010519165033fw_/http://cybertext.net/pence/issues.html The Pence Agenda for the 107th Congress: • Congress should oppose any effort to put gay and lesbian relationships on an equal legal status with heterosexual marriage.• Congress should oppose any effort to recognize homosexual’s as a "discreet and insular minority" entitled to the protection of anti-discrimination laws similar to those extended to women and ethnic minorities.• Congress should support the reauthorization of the Ryan White Care Act only after completion of an audit to ensure that federal dollars were no longer being given to organizations that celebrate and encourage the types of behaviors that facilitate the spreading of the HIV virus. Resources should be directed toward those institutions which provide assistance to those seeking to change their sexual behavior. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lost highway Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 The real question is why did they really need the law in the first place? At this point the Indie politicians have spoken a lot about all of the awful things it supposedly wont do, but what should it actually do? Were citizens struggling to find the freedom to conduct their religious lives? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eternal Instigator Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I try to imagine the hurt, the humiliation, the outrage, the need to object coupled with the fear of having to do so (I'm an introvert...start a lawsuit?! ) (Though I hope I wouldn't shrink from it either)....all of this is horrifying in my imagination, and that's only imagination. The reality must be so much more hard and bitter, and the sense of being betrayed by a country I love and support would be very hard to take. I don't think anyone should have to live in this country in 2015 with that sort of ugliness hounding their every public footstep. I don't know how well I'm saying this, but the idea of living under such a cloud until some brave soul chases it through the courts is incredibly reprehensible to me. Try to imagine if it were you, or someone you love. I'm so proud of Wilco for being willing to object to this ugly law.Well said, Kidsmoke! I wish there was a "like" button here too! I said it before and I'll say it again - Wilco cancelling the show because of this law should not come as a surprise to their fans if they've paid any attention at all to what the band does off the stage. They have a long history of supporting social causes and even lay them all out on their website. I'd be bummed if I had tickets, but I fully support and understand their decision - I'm sure it was a really tough one for them to make. Based on the rhetoric from IN lawmakers and supporters of the bill, their intent is pretty clear: http://www.advanceamerica.com/blog/?p=1849. Some of the arguments I've seen on Twitter don't see a problem because, while there will be a few that turn folks away, there are plenty of businesses that will be happy to serve LGBT clients. Never mind the humiliation and hassle that goes with it. But what about LGBT folks that live in rural parts of IN? Should they have to drive a half hour to the next town in hopes that the grocery store will allow them to buy food for their family? This could even apply to a woman on birth control who lives in a town where the only pharmacist refuses to dispense it, regardless of whether she is using it for family planning or for the numerous other reasons doctors prescribe these drugs. And to those who say "wait and see", here's our first example of a business fully prepared to discriminate and they sell...wait for it...pizza: http://www.abc57.com/story/28681598/rfra-first-business-to-publicly-deny-same-sex-service. Not sure how many folks, LGBT or straight, were planning on serving pizza at their wedding, but I wonder how this business will react when a LGBT family wants to have a pizza party to celebrate a newly adopted baby or child's birthday? I certainly hope they also refuse to cater a wedding between previously divorced couples, couples who lived together or had children out of wedlock, couples belonging to other religions, etc... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LouieB Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 If anyone is freaked out about Wilco cancelling this show then they don't really understand or care about this band and it is time to find some other band to obsess about. LouieB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eternal Instigator Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 If anyone is freaked out about Wilco cancelling this show then they don't really understand or care about this band and it is time to find some other band to obsess about. LouieBLike!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tinnitus photography Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 With "could" being the operative word here, as the law doesn't take effect for 3 months and nobody (including the author of the article) seems to agree on what it might or might not actually do. If someone were actually discriminated against, he/she would file a suit and it would work its way up to the Supreme Court, if necessary. If the law is found unconstitutional, it gets thrown out. That's how things typically work in this country. As I've said in another thread, the solution to our nation's problems isn't more laws.any gay people wanting to cater their wedding w/ pizzas is gonna have to look elsewhere:http://www.abc57.com/story/28681598/rfra-first-business-to-publicly-deny-same-sex-service but they can eat it in the store: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thejokeexplained Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 The most unsettling thing for me with Wilcos Indy stand is,this is the first time i have ever had to endure people criticizing my favorite band. (even though it's mostly coming from people that have know idea who Wilco is, and have never listened to a song they have played.) In the 15 years i have followed them, even people who didn't like the music of the band never really said anything nasty about them. But i guess that's where we are with social media. It's so easy to hate when you hide behind a keyboard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eternal Instigator Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 (see post 56) The NCAA, Gen Con, Angie's List + many city / states not paying for travel to Indiana have made the difference in this change, not Wilco as a few want to believe. Pence will not change this law that he has so proudly supported. He was one of the first teabaggers on the train.I'm pretty sure no one on this board suggested that Wilco's boycott was the straw that broke the camel's back but they were a small part of a larger movement. The Indy mayor and Chamber of Commerce were against this from the start and if you think they aren't totalling up every penny of lost business revenue that can be directly contributed to the law, you're mistaken. I'm sorry you feel you can no longer be a fan of Wilco because they made a tough decision to stand up for what is right and against a regressive law that allows discrimination. There will be other shows - it's Wilco for crying out loud! This honestly says more about you and your priorities than it does about anything else. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bleedorange Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I just wanted to pause and say that...this is the most activity this board has seen in years. It's nice to see. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eternal Instigator Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 The most unsettling thing for me with Wilcos Indy stand is,this is the first time i have ever had to endure people criticizing my favorite band. (even though it's mostly coming from people that have know idea who Wilco is, and have never listened to a song they have played.) In the 15 years i have followed them, even people who didn't like the music of the band never really said anything nasty about them. But i guess that's where we are with social media. It's so easy to hate when you hide behind a keyboard. The ones that get me are those that call it a PR stunt. They've made it 20 freaking years, sell out most of their shows and even have their own festival - all without the support of commercial radio and with most of the world saying "Wilco who?". PR stunt, my butt. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eternal Instigator Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 any gay people wanting to cater their wedding w/ pizzas is gonna have to look elsewhere:http://www.abc57.com/story/28681598/rfra-first-business-to-publicly-deny-same-sex-service but they can eat it in the store:That's not honestly from that "Christian" pizza place is it?! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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