Hixter Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Do the mods here have an opinion on trolls who have only signed up in the last couple of days so they can dump on the band with the same discredited talking points?It's a free country, right? Who would want to participate in a forum where you weren't allowed to criticize the band? Debate is debate, and as long as they aren't spamming or breaking the rules then they should be treated politely. Or ignored, if that's what floats your boat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I would suggest a possibility is that they are willing to wait out the upcoming Supreme Court decisions.Yet they weren't willing to do so for a law that won't even take effect until 2 months after the Indy show? Seems a little inconsistent to me. Anyway, I won't be surprised if the Indiana law is reworded and the show goes on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Why oh why Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Exactly. Do the mods here have an opinion on trolls who have only signed up in the last couple of days so they can dump on the band with the same discredited talking points? Paste Magazine published an excellent piece yesterday on Wilco's decision to cancel and the 'concern trolling' that followed - a lot of which we've seen on here the last few days. http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2015/03/wilco-and-the-concern-trolls-tweedy-and-co-cancel.html In the article Shane Ryan does a great job of demolishing the troll talking points - as per the extract below: Let’s take these point by point. All you’re doing is punishing the fans! Nope. By drawing attention to Indiana’s law, and showing that it will have consequences for the people of the state, Wilco is increasing the already significant pressure on Mike Pence and the politicians of Indiana. It’s also magnifying the pressure on the state’s citizens to push for reform. Any attempt to make Wilco look like the bad guy is just diverting responsibility from where it belongs. Indiana lost this concert because of its government, not because Jeff Tweedy hates his fans. The fans are innocent bystanders! As far as I know, Mike Pence and the Indiana House of Representatives didn’t take power through a violent coup d’etat—I feel like I would have heard about that. They were elected by the people, and like it or not, the people are a reflection of their elected leaders. Believe me, I know this is a tough pill to swallow — I live in North Carolina — but it’s the truth. You’re discriminating just like they are! It’s hugely disingenuous to lump together a state government that is actively offering protection for private businesses who want to deny service to a certain group of people, and a band that chooses to cancel a show in protest. In the 1970s, Americans boycotted Polaroid because the company did business with the South African apartheid government. Would you ever have said that the Americans were “discriminating” against Polaroid the same way that South Africa was discriminating against its black citizens? Nobody’s arguing that Indiana has reached the level of apartheid, but the philosophical illegitimacy of the argument is the same. False equivalency is a hallmark of the concern troll. Why aren’t you boycotting all the other RFRA states? We’ve covered how the Indiana statute differs from those that came before, but the truth is, even if their RFRA was identical to its predecessors, this is still a toothless argument. The reality is that Indiana has taken center stage, and if the opposition adopted the attitude of, “well, it’s already happened, so I guess we should just let it slide,” it would give carte blanche to other states to pass similar legislation. This is a classic concern troll tactic—the implication that something offensive should be excused because it happens to be status quo. The fact that a stand should have been taken years earlier doesn’t diminish the importance of taking one now. This won’t make any impact! It won’t solve the problem! Wrong. It’s already made an impact, and a pretty big one, publicity-wise. Reasonable people can disagree about the long-term effects—maybe this will rally the conservative base more than it riles up the liberal opposition—but Wilco have successfully drawn more attention to Indiana’s RFRA, and increased the pressure on Mike Pence. Yet again, we see a quintessential concern troll stratagem: You’re not going to change anything, so why bother speaking up? The idea that it’s not a worthwhile stand since it won’t singlehandedly revoke the RFRA is similarly short-sighted and troll-ish—even though he guest-starred on Parks & Recreation once, Jeff Tweedy is not an Indiana politician. Within his purview, he’s done everything he can. It’s not his job to be Political Superman. When you reduce the concern troll tactics to their baseline absurdity, this becomes a very simple issue. Wilco doesn’t like Indiana’s RFRA. Wilco took a stand by canceling a concert in the state. The cancelation drew more attention to the law, and proved that there are repercussions to its passage—even if those repercussions are limited to one concert by one band. They know, though, that change isn’t enacted in one dramatic, sweeping moment, but by an accumulation of consequences. By jumping in with both feet at the start of the process, Wilco might prove to have a bigger impact than anyone expected. Even if that snowball effect never comes to pass, and Indiana businesses proudly assert their legally protected right to turn away LGBT customers for decades to come, the failure doesn’t belong to Wilco. Standing up for your beliefs is the right thing to do, even when you lose. Most of this is reasonable, I read it before posting. Reasonable, understandable and still a weak way to take a stand against a bad law. So many alternatives that may not get as much PR but are win-win. Frankly Wilco's boycott is insignificant in the big picture. It is really a lost opportunity for them to take a higher road, a truly inclusive road. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CCRGMac Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I've noticed that Ticketmaster haven't sent my refund yet. If the law is repealed (or meaningfully amended)this week - as Pence says it will - would the show go back on? Not that I have any reason to take Pence at his word. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kidsmoke Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Exactly. Do the mods here have an opinion on trolls who have only signed up in the last couple of days so they can dump on the band with the same discredited talking points? Paste Magazine published an excellent piece yesterday on Wilco's decision to cancel and the 'concern trolling' that followed - a lot of which we've seen on here the last few days. http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2015/03/wilco-and-the-concern-trolls-tweedy-and-co-cancel.html In the article Shane Ryan does a great job of demolishing the troll talking points - as per the extract below: Absolutely, the mods have opinions on this behavior, and are monitoring this thread. We have chosen thus far to allow this conversation to continue, warts and all, because it is a really valuable conversation, and the members of this community have handled themselves and all troll-like commentary with dignity and informed, reasoned responses. I've been really impressed with that, and with the way baiting has been largely ignored.I love that article you've quoted and have been sharing it myself on facebook. Thanks for bringing it here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cold as Gasoline Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Most of this is reasonable, I read it before posting. Reasonable, understandable and still a weak way to take a stand against a bad law. So many alternatives that may not get as much PR but are win-win. Frankly Wilco's boycott is insignificant in the big picture. It is really a lost opportunity for them to take a higher road, a truly inclusive road. Curious. What is this higher, inclusive road that you envision? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hwllo Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 It really is a tough spot. Wilco made the decision to stand up in some way for what they believe in which is a decision which should be celebrated in my opinion. How they chose to stand up was by cancelling the show and people are complaining. If they chose to release a statement but still play, people would say they are money hungry and don't practice what the preach. If they chose to play but donate the money, people would say it's a big PR stunt and they wanted everyone to know they were donating money. Basically in the court of public opinion, one in which people love to complain and criticize, it was a lose/lose for Wilco once they decided to make a stand. Clearly, I consider it a good move and applaud them, however no matter what they did people would find reason to complain. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lost highway Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 One day later I can only conclude that the people who are still really upset about this have a shortage of problems to worry about. (Sexual orientation discrimination apparently isn't one of them). Get well soon everybody. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ditty Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 It really is a tough spot. Wilco made the decision to stand up in some way for what they believe in which is a decision which should be celebrated in my opinion. How they chose to stand up was by cancelling the show and people are complaining. If they chose to release a statement but still play, people would say they are money hungry and don't practice what the preach. If they chose to play but donate the money, people would say it's a big PR stunt and they wanted everyone to know they were donating money. Basically in the court of public opinion, one in which people love to complain and criticize, it was a lose/lose for Wilco once they decided to make a stand. Clearly, I consider it a good move and applaud them, however no matter what they did people would find reason to complain. The bottom line is the band made a commitment to play a show. MANY fans made commitments for this date and the band should stick to theirs. If they want to say they will never return, then fine do that but stick to your commitments. As for everyone willing to pat them on the back for this, where were they when Proposition 8 was passed? As Hixter said last night "Indiana allows same-sex marriage, but they have shows scheduled in several states it don't allow it, including mine. Why aren't they being boycotted/canceled, too?" How about some consistency? I think that's all the ticket holders would have liked, then as FolkGirl said, WE could have expected this. One day later I can only conclude that the people who are still really upset about this have a shortage of problems to worry about. (Sexual orientation discrimination apparently isn't one of them). Get well soon everybody.Certainly first world problems, but your still coming here and commenting as well... Discrimination is everywhere, hateful people will be hateful people, WE can't change everything and everybody quickly. As this older generation dies off, this country WILL be a better place, but right now, this country and our world is an absolute mess and a little fun for one night on THU May 7 would have given all us ticket holders a bit of release, but according to a few board members we are to get over it and move on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
billydee Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Basically in the court of public opinion, one in which people love to complain and criticize, it was a lose/lose for Wilco once they decided to make a stand. Clearly, I consider it a good move and applaud them, however no matter what they did people would find reason to complain.You nailed it from my perspective. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bleedorange Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 The amount of angst generated over missing a concert has been amazing. Especially for a band that hasn't put out a great album in over a decade. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tinnitus photography Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 The bottom line is the band made a commitment to play a show. MANY fans made commitments for this date and the band should stick to theirs. If they want to say they will never return, then fine do that but stick to your commitments. thank the FSM that you're not a fan of All Tomorrow's Parties, which have canceled at least three festivals at the last minute. it's one goddamned show and you're getting your $ back. suck it up, princess. last i checked, Chicago isn't too far away. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
knotgreen Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 The amount of angst generated over missing a concert has been amazing. Especially for a band that hasn't put out a great album in over a decade. Good albums, but great shows. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ditty Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 thank the FSM that you're not a fan of All Tomorrow's Parties, which have canceled at least three festivals at the last minute. it's one goddamned show and you're getting your $ back. suck it up, princess. last i checked, Chicago isn't too far away. ha, glad you took the time to finally chime in. But since you get into most shows for free, what's it matter, right? Actually Cincy, Louisville and St Louis are all close by. Traditionally I would have gone to ALL theses shows plus the the Chicago run in December, but management chose to suck us mid-westerners into going to Nashville first and as those shows were just upon us announced the Chicago run. I've learned that's their mode of operation, get the same fans to all the shows and suck them dry...but that's actually more a comment for this thread http://viachicago.org/topic/50674-is-it-just-me-the-high-price-of-wilco/ o and before that they suck us into going to the Columbus show too Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Magnetized Posted April 2, 2015 Author Share Posted April 2, 2015 Good albums, but great shows.Great albums, greater shows. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lost highway Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Especially for a band that hasn't put out a great album in over a decade.How dare you! (remember when this was the most heated discussion around these parts) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Doug C Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 This reminds of February 2008 when 5 days before the date, Wilco postponed the Charleston, SC show to be on SNL. As I had tickets, I was not happy. I, similar to some Indy area fans, was like a dog with a bone. I wouldn't let it go and ran my logic into the ground, foolishly believing that the posters disagreeing with me would eventually see the light. I sounded like a major douche. I reread that shit a couple days ago and cringed. How I wish that I had made my point, once, maybe twice, and then let it the fuck go. Even though I was 44/45, I was fairly new to the internet, and lost sight of all reason. Any of you that remember, I apologize and I ask your forgiveness, unless you found me to be entertaining. All I can say in my defense is that, hey, it was 5 days notice, not 5 weeks, and it was to be on SNL, not to take a principled stance on a human rights issue. Those of you still ranting, let it go. Trust me. You don't want to regret it even more than you already will. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
longballlumber Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Little late to the party, but SUPER disappointed as a fan and understand why they made the decision… This is the 4th time I have paid for tickets to see Wilco (3) or Tweedy (1) and have yet to actually make a concert. First three times it’s been because of my wife’s horrible medical issues with her back, but this time it’s because Wilco is standing up to something they believe in. Oh well, I guess the bright side for me is I will actually get my money back this time. I am SOOOO jealous of those of you who've see them multiple times already! Later Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mus2009 Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 There is a proposed amendment today to the law prohibiting discrimination based upon sexual orientation/gender identification Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ditty Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 This reminds of February 2008 when 5 days before the date, Wilco postponed the Charleston, SC show to be on SNL. As I had tickets, I was not happy. I, similar to some Indy area fans, was like a dog with a bone. I wouldn't let it go and ran my logic into the ground, foolishly believing that the posters disagreeing with me would eventually see the light. I sounded like a major douche. I reread that shit a couple days ago and cringed. How I wish that I had made my point, once, maybe twice, and then let it the fuck go. Even though I was 44/45, I was fairly new to the internet, and lost sight of all reason. Any of you that remember, I apologize and I ask your forgiveness, unless you found me to be entertaining. All I can say in my defense is that, hey, it was 5 days notice, not 5 weeks, and it was to be on SNL, not to take a principled stance on a human rights issue. Those of you still ranting, let it go. Trust me. You don't want to regret it even more than you already will. Yes, I know, thank you. I've already read back and wish I would have used my words differently, and certainly know I'm preaching to the choir. I also know management and Jeff read the board occasionally and they should understand there were other ways and they have PISSED fans off, specially with the line in the sand they drew. "Hope to get back to the Hoosier State someday soon, when this odious measure is repealed" This morning our wonderful politicians introduced new language for the state's "religious freedom" law, to clarify that the law does not allow businesses to deny goods or services to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender individuals." This is far from a repeal so based on the bands words they will not be returning or rescheduling. BTW, I just checked and it took them August 7th to make that show up, huh? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tinnitus photography Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 ha, glad you took the time to finally chime in. But since you get into most shows for free, what's it matter, right?What does the price of a ticket matter? Or is it that you are not getting a refund? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 As I've said before, the band are a bunch of nice guys with their hearts in the right place, but I can't help but look at this as it's-almost-election-year, partisan politics. It's just another part of the polarization of the masses: "Look at how evil and hateful the other side is." It makes me want to crawl under a rock for the next 19 months. Gays have more rights in Indiana than here in Texas, but the Lone Star State shows will go on. To me, it's like Apple's gay CEO, Tim Cook, railing against Indiana while doing business with places like Saudi Arabia, where they imprison, whip, execute and crucify gays. Hypocrisy is bad. Hypocrisy influenced by politics and money is disgusting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vmf Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Hey I just called Ticketmaster/Live Nation about a refund and they said that the show hasn't been officially canceled. I'm not sure if that means the show will go on or not. Hopefully, the people who are complaining about this read my earlier post and are getting in touch with the legislators that passed this law. In the internet age it is really easy to do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ditty Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 What does the price of a ticket matter? Or is it that you are not getting a refund? We should get a ticket price refund, but I would highly doubt that will include the $13.50 per ticket, Live Nation fee. For those of us here, that buy tickets regularly, there is a certain amount of stress that goes with buying tickets, just look at the pre-sale days and threads discussing those. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lost highway Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 As I've said before, the band are a bunch of nice guys with their hearts in the right place, but I can't help but look at this as it's-almost-election-year, partisan politics. It's just another part of the polarization of the masses: "Look at how evil and hateful the other side is." They didn't say anything about partisan politics, just a law. If anything the polarity is in your interpretation of their action. If they were filling up twitter with rants against the GOP I'd say you have something. I can also understand that for a republican to mix in a community of Wilco fans it must be easy to feel like an outsider. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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