Hot Stove League '07-'08

[ZenLunatic]

The "everybody was doing it" rule works well for 5 year olds. Not so well for adults. The guy broke the rules, got caught, and should now be punished.

 

There is no way to draw the line in baseball and steriods. Why try? If you want to be completely fair, maybe the accomplishments in baseball for the last 5 years should not exist. Its all tainted. I think if Bonds was a more likeable guy in general, none of this will be happening.

[Lammycat]

There is no way to draw the line in baseball and steriods. Why try? If you want to be completely fair, maybe the accomplishments in baseball for the last 5 years should not exist. Its all tainted. I think if Bonds was a more likeable guy in general, none of this will be happening.

I disagree. It's not all tainted. And, I think there is a line to draw, and that line is conclusive evidence that a player broke rules. Not every player uses or used PEDs. Many did and got away with it. Some used and got caught. When you go against rules and get busted you should be held accountable. It's that simple. What is so bizarre about this concept to some people is beyond me.

 

Whether or not Bonds is a likable person probably does factor into it. Would he still be guilty of breaking rules if he were a likable guy, though? Of course. Again, Barry Bonds brought this on himself. It wasn't the media or the fans who forced him to use illegal and banned substances.

[ZenLunatic]

I disagree. It's not all tainted. And, I think there is a line to draw, and that line is conclusive evidence that a player broke rules. Not every player uses or used PEDs. Many did and got away with it. Some used and got caught. When you go against rules and get busted you should be held accountable. It's that simple. What is so bizarre about this concept to some people is beyond me.

 

I guess thats where we disagree. No line can be drawn. I dont think getting caught should be what determines who keeps their records. Cause that means if you are cunning enough not to get caught using drugs, you are safe.

 

I understand if you get caught you should pay. If bonds does get convicted he should get whatever punishment. My thing is why do they even keep going after this like they can fix what happened. Baseball is not clean and it wasnt that clean to begin with. I just accept that steriods was a sign of the times with baseball around this time and note that and move on. I just hope after this Bonds thing, they can just relax. Although I do think it is unfair that Sosa and McGwire gets to keep their records cause we all know they did steriods.

[Lammycat]

I guess thats where we disagree. No line can be drawn. I dont think getting caught should be what determines who keeps their records. Cause that means if you are cunning enough not to get caught using drugs, you are safe.

The line is choosing to use or not use illegal and banned substances. Some players crossed the line and got away with it. Bonds didn't.

[Lammycat]

I understand if you get caught you should pay. If bonds does get convicted he should get whatever punishment.[/b] My thing is why do they even keep going after this like they can fix what happened. Baseball is not clean and it wasnt that clean to begin with. I just accept that steriods was a sign of the times with baseball around this time and note that and move on. I just hope after this Bonds thing, they can just relax. Although I do think it is unfair that Sosa and McGwire gets to keep their records cause we all know they did steriods.

MLB is at least moving in the right direction, finally, with the steroids issue. Yes they are culpable by turning a blind eye for so long, but at least steps are being taken to make things right. As far as I'm aware, there is no conclusive evidence if either Sosa or McGuire using illegal and banned substances, though one could make a pretty good guess that they probable did. This shouldn't t detract from what Bonds did, though.

[ZenLunatic]

The line is choosing to use or not use illegal and banned substances. Some players crossed the line and got away with it. Bonds didn't.

 

You are really saying is that the line is if a player gets caught using drugs not that they chose to use drugs. But I understand where you are coming from. I just think the drug use in baseball was a lot more widespread than you. To me, its effect in baseball is immeasurable. I somewhat believe its more of an attack on Bonds than trying to clean up baseball.

[ZenLunatic]

MLB is at least moving in the right direction, finally, with the steroids issue. Yes they are culpable by turning a blind eye for so long, but at least steps are being taken to make things right. As far as I'm aware, there is no conclusive evidence if either Sosa or McGuire using illegal and banned substances, though one could make a pretty good guess that they probable did. This shouldn't t detract from what Bonds did, though.

 

I think if MLB tried hard enough, they could prove McGwire and Sosa guilty. Because they are.

 

I do believe this whole thing in the long run is good for baseball and shouldve done this long ago.

[Lammycat]

You are really saying is that the line is if a player gets caught using drugs not that they chose to use drugs.

No. A line is drawn as to what substances can and cannot be used. Choosing to use banned and illegal substances is choosing to cross that line. The line was lax, but there was/is a line.

[ZenLunatic]

No. A line is drawn as to what substances can and cannot be used. Choosing to use banned and illegal substances is choosing to cross that line. The line was lax, but there was/is a line.

 

Your assumption is that if they dont get caught then they arent using it. This is ok moving foward now that all this happened and there is solid testing and enforcements. But all the years that passed by with widespread usage is there where the line was pretty much non-existent. Too much to go back and try to sort it out. In my mind McGwire is just as guilty as Bonds, where's McGwire's headlines? Maybe he was more careful, maybe he was more liked, does that excuse him? Hard to draw that line of fairness.

[Lammycat]

Your assumption is that if they dont get caught then they arent using it. This is ok moving foward now that all this happened and there is solid testing and enforcements. But all the years that passed by with widespread usage is there where the line was pretty much non-existent. Too much to go back and try to sort it out. In my mind McGwire is just as guilty as Bonds, where's McGwire's headlines? Maybe he was more careful, maybe he was more liked, does that excuse him? Hard to draw that line of fairness.

But all you can do is assume McGwire used. Unless there is evidence to convict him of breaking rules, is it fair to point fingers on innuendo only? People have been pointing fingers at Bonds because there is evidence that he used. There's a difference. Besides, Bonds isn't being tried for using steroids, but for lying about using steroids.

[Spawn's dad]

MLB is at least moving in the right direction, finally, with the steroids issue.

 

yeah, and therein lies the problem. The testing employed by MLB is a joke. Only an absolute jackass could fail that test. Top athletes in a myriad of sports with far more stringent testing frequently avoid detection. Going after Bonds gives them a high profile impression that they are doing something. Face it, they're not even getting him on their own testing but on a federal perjury charge. This, frankly, sets the whole steroid issue back instead of actually advances it. Here's hoping the Mitchel report is a who's who of top players and someone will finally be able to address the issue in a way that accomplished something.

[ZenLunatic]

But all you can do is assume McGwire used.

 

I know 100% he used. Just like I know 100% OJ was guilty even though he wasnt proven so.

[ction]

I know 100% he used. Just like I know 100% OJ was guilty even though he wasnt proven so.

 

You were there when McGwire shot up and OJ killed people?

[cryptique]

I know 100% he used. Just like I know 100% OJ was guilty even though he wasnt proven so.

No, you don't. You strongly believe those things, and you interpret the available evidence, rather logically I would agree, to conclude those things -- but you don't "know 100%."

[Lammycat]

yeah, and therein lies the problem. The testing employed by MLB is a joke. Only an absolute jackass could fail that test. Top athletes in a myriad of sports with far more stringent testing frequently avoid detection. Going after Bonds gives them a high profile impression that they are doing something. Face it, they're not even getting him on their own testing but on a federal perjury charge. This, frankly, sets the whole steroid issue back instead of actually advances it. Here's hoping the Mitchel report is a who's who of top players and someone will finally be able to address the issue in a way that accomplished something.

Doing nothing with Bonds would be a better option? Again, MLB is culpable but continuing to ignore the problem won't resolve the issue. Of course they need to go after Bonds; he broke the record under an enormous cloud of suspicion. He helped in making himself the poster child for what's wrong with MLB.

 

The testing is a joke, you're right. I still see the Bonds case as a step forward, though. At the minimum it's acknowledgement that there is a problem. How pathetic is it that there is a book written on the guy detailing his cheating and MLB does nothing about it? If they get him on perjury, so be it. It at least sets a bar that says if you get caught breaking rules you are held accountable. That in itself is progress.

 

The Mitchell Report will be an ugly reality but will hopefully serve as a document to expose the bs that MLB was for this era.

[Spawn's dad]

The problem is in the witch hunt mentality, and the collective sigh that will breathed when they finally get him mentally signifying the end of the steroid era when in fact nothing at all would have changed.

[P Dub]

Garland to the Angels for Cabrera...I was hoping the Cardinals could get Garland. Didn't the Sox just resign Uribe?

[cryptique]

The Mitchell Report will be an ugly reality but will hopefully serve as a document to expose the bs that MLB was for this era.

Of course, one of the roots of all of this (perhaps the main one) is money. With the ludicrous contracts being thrown around these days, why wouldn't you take steroids and HGH in the hope that you might sign a six-year, $60 million deal? Just put in one good year with 30-plus home runs and 100 RBI (preferably during the last year of your contract) and you'll be a millionaire for life.

 

Baseball was a better game when players had to get jobs in the off-season to make ends meet. Yes, that's a bit of bullshit nostalgia for an era that I wasn't even around for, but I'm starting to think it's also true. I have no problems with baseball players being highly paid ... but why does anyone need a $100 million contract?

 

I once put forth a radical suggestion that to deal with baseball's problems, it should be shut down for five years, then re-started with salary caps and some semblance of fiscal responsibility. That was before the whole performance-enhancing drug issue even surfaced. I think it's a hopelessly na

[Lammycat]

The problem is in the witch hunt mentality, and the collective sigh that will breathed when they finally get him mentally signifying the end of the steroid era when in fact nothing at all would have changed.

How is holding the key figure in the steroids mess accountable not doing something? How is holding him accountable for lying about cheating not progress? I guess I just don't see the alternative of doing nothing as being a better option. If it is indeed a witch hunt then Bonds himself is the main reason he is being treated as such.

[cryptique]

I won't presume to speak for gary, but what I mean by "nothing will have changed" is that players will continue to use performance-enhancing drugs despite the fallout of the Bonds case and the Mitchell report. Until MLB develops an effective test for HGH, and stiffens its testing procedures for 'roids and other drugs, I don't think the current high-profile cases are going to have much of an effect on the actual problem. The allure of huge contracts is awfully hard to resist.

[Lammycat]

I won't presume to speak for gary, but what I mean by "nothing will have changed" is that players will continue to use performance-enhancing drugs despite the fallout of the Bonds case and the Mitchell report. Until MLB develops an effective test for HGH, and stiffens its testing procedures for 'roids and other drugs, I don't think the current high-profile cases are going to have much of an effect on the actual problem. The allure of huge contracts is awfully hard to resist.

Ah, I see. I tend to agree with this. However, doesn't holding even one person accountable make a difference? Guys get suspended all the time for steroids these days and by holding the highest profiled player in the game accountable I see it as a harbinger to others tempted to use illegal and/or banned substances.

 

Good point about the lucrative contracts and the prevalence of banned substances. There most certainly is a correlation. When high schoolers are using the stuff it's a problem. Lifetime bans from MLB for those proven guilty of using should be the only punishment acceptable.

[ZenLunatic]

No, you don't. You strongly believe those things, and you interpret the available evidence, rather logically I would agree, to conclude those things -- but you don't "know 100%."

 

How about I would bet my life on it.

[bobbob1313]

Doing nothing with Bonds would be a better option? Again, MLB is culpable but continuing to ignore the problem won't resolve the issue. Of course they need to go after Bonds; he broke the record under an enormous cloud of suspicion. He helped in making himself the poster child for what's wrong with MLB.

 

The testing is a joke, you're right. I still see the Bonds case as a step forward, though. At the minimum it's acknowledgement that there is a problem. How pathetic is it that there is a book written on the guy detailing his cheating and MLB does nothing about it? If they get him on perjury, so be it. It at least sets a bar that says if you get caught breaking rules you are held accountable. That in itself is progress.

 

The Mitchell Report will be an ugly reality but will hopefully serve as a document to expose the bs that MLB was for this era.

Bonds being tried for perjury doesn't show the other players anything except that on the off chance you are brought before a grand jury (which likely won't happen to 99.9% of players), you shouldn't lie. If he tells the truth to the grand jury and says he used, you know what his penalties are? Nothing.

[ction]

How about I would bet my life on it.

 

So you were there? I knew it.

[jenbobblehead]

The Red Sox and Mike Lowell have agreed to a three-year deal that will keep the World Series MVP in Boston, according to baseball sources close to the negotiations. Sources indicate that the three year deal is worth in the $36-$38 million range.