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same here.

 

i haven't counted, but is there an unusually high number of wilco fans who have dealt with panic, depression, or both? i mean, more (percentage-wise) than in the general population? i get that feeling, and even though it went unspoken for so long, whenever i read/hear jeff talking about this i wonder if it is a silent part of why some of us are so drawn to him and his turn of mind. some of his songs really take me to straight to melancholy, but they're so gorgeous, and familiar in a way, that i can't not listen to them.

 

 

i've suffered from both of them, and even before i got into Wilco

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Yep, word to that, Froggy.

I've been having anxiety attacks for nearly 30 years and was only diagnosed with it ten years ago. Straight onto Xanax.

And I also have migraines. In fact, I was having one last night but thought, f**k it, I'll push on through. Glad I did.

I was able to go home after the Enmore show (which was awesome but during which my iPod battery died after 25 minutes of recording - eeep).

Cue more anxiety. :dontgetit

Anyway, there's always been something in the way the guitar sounds on AGIB have reminded me of having an anxiety attack.

Now I figure I'm not talking out of my hat.

Stupid talking hat.

Love to you all, Wilco brethren. The show in Sydney last night was amazing.

J

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I suffer from those kind of things too. I think the way Jeff brings together lyrics and music kind of, it makes you feel like how you feel when a Panic attack is over. Confused, relieved, scared, grateful and just very lucid. Wilco is a fantastic band but I do think people who suffer from these type of psychological issues can relate to the music. It's just very...good, as you all know.

 

Wow. did that make any sense?

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I suffer from those kind of things too. I think the way Jeff brings together lyrics and music kind of, it makes you feel like how you feel when a Panic attack is over. Confused, relieved, scared, grateful and just very lucid. Wilco is a fantastic band but I do think people who suffer from these type of psychological issues can relate to the music. It's just very...good, as you all know.

 

Wow. did that make any sense?

yah, it did make sense, good job. especially sentences 2 into 3.

 

i wonder which songs especially pull at some of you who share these conditions with jeff tweedy, which songs bring up the emotions listed by sgtpepper64. so many appeal to me on other levels, like "war on war," "the thanks i get," "the ruling class," and, well too many to name. but some have pulled me deep inside the "confused, relieved, scared, grateful and just very lucid" state of being, and those are:

 

less than you think

hell is chrome

via chicago

pieholden suite

elt

reservations

how to fight loneliness

summerteeth

sunken treasure

at least that's what you said

impossible germany

side with the seeds

on and on and on

 

probably others, too, that i may not be listening to this week.

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so many appeal to me on other levels, like "war on war," "the thanks i get," "the ruling class," and, well too many to name. but some have pulled me deep inside the "confused, relieved, scared, grateful and just very lucid" state of being, and those are: pull at some of you who share these conditions with jeff tweedy, which songs bring up the em

 

less than you think

hell is chrome

via chicago

pieholden suite

elt

reservations

how to fight loneliness

summerteeth

sunken treasure

at least that's what you said

impossible germany

side with the seeds

on and on and on

 

probably others, too, that i may not be listening to this week.

 

 

You nailed most of them on the head that get me too. Even "War on War" with the lines "You have to die if you want to want to be alive" and "You're gonna lose. You have to lose." are just, well I don't know. Something about the way that's said digs deeper than any passing person might think. There is something about the way he accepts those things as he sings them, that makes them tragically, heartbreakingly beautiful.

 

Hell is Chrome for sure

 

The last verse of Hate It Here, when he ends with "'cause I know you don't live here anymore". Jeff has such a way of breaking your heart but keeping a smile on your face it's really unique to his music. Your heart breaks for him but at the same time you relate to it, and are happy for him. He presents a narrorator that you can relate to, a narrorator that you feel you are, in a way that other writers wish they could. He brings out the best person in you, experiencing the worst feelings, emotions or situations. I don't want to go through the things that Jeff is talking about, but after hearing his words and his music, you almost want to experience them for yourself just to feel them. Most times though, at least for me, you already know and have felt exactly what he's talking about.

 

On and On and On

At least that's what you said

Reservations

Wishful Thinking

 

And of course, the bridge in Theologians. Listen to the version from Sunken Treasure. The lyrics, the way they fit into the music:

 

"I'm going away where you will look for me. Where I'm going you cannot come. No one is ever gonna take my life from me. I lay it down, a ghost is born"

 

The way that all comes together is frighteningly beautiful. If every other artist could create one painting, or picture, or whatever medium they work on. If they could create something as beautiful as that moment, the world might be a better place.

 

Am I getting ahead of myself? Am I getting too specific? Weirdly specific?

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i've suffered from both of them, and even before i got into Wilco

 

i know it wasn't your intention, but this made me chuckle a little bit because i got an image of somebody turning wilco on and suddenly becoming stricken with panic attacks and anxiety disorder. i have had acute anxiety attacks as well, and i wouldn't be surprised if the reason people like us are drawn to the music of jeff has at least something to do with that.

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This is very interesting. I've often wondered why it is I relate to his songs so much even though there is nothing overtly personal to me about them. Maybe this is why? I had really bad panic attacks up until about a year ago, and I've often found something vaguely comforting about Jeff's music, like some great overarching theme that I could never put my finger on but that I nevertheless could relate to, even in the most obscure of stuff.

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You nailed most of them on the head that get me too. Even "War on War" with the lines "You have to die if you want to want to be alive" and "You're gonna lose. You have to lose." are just, well I don't know. Something about the way that's said digs deeper than any passing person might think. There is something about the way he accepts those things as he sings them, that makes them tragically, heartbreakingly beautiful.

 

Exactly! I latched onto "War on War" when I was going through cognitive behavioral therapy for my panic attacks. The idea that a panic attack feels like you're dying and the line, "You have to learn how to die if you want to want be alive" basically summed up the entire therapy experience for me. I've got this condition that makes me feel like I'm dying, and it's ruining my life. It's not until I learn to how to deal with these "deaths" that I'm going to be able to really live, instead of being trapped in this terrified, agoraphobic world where my emotions dictate my actions.

 

Am I getting ahead of myself? Am I getting too specific? Weirdly specific?

 

Nah, I think you just saved me having to write a really long post, because you said most of what I was thinking. :thumbup

 

I will add that "Ashes of American Flags" also has a lot of panic parallels, for me. Maybe because I listened to it a lot when I was in therapy, too.

I'm down on my hands and knees

Every time the doorbell rings

I shake like a toothache

When I hear myself sing

That verse absolutely nailed what my ever-present anxiety felt like. The entire song, for me, is a description of the loneliness and isolation these conditions bring. And that chorus, "If all my lies were always wishes/I know I would die if I could come back new" ... yeah.

 

Musically, I also agree with what you said, Sgt. Pepper. AGIB came out at a time when my conditions were starting to get way out of control. I remember the first time I listened to the drone on "Less Than You Think", the day the album was released. I sat there with my mouth hanging opening, thinking, "My God. They've managed to set a panic attack to music. This sounds the way an attack feels."

 

Funny thing is, I didn't get into Wilco because of these connections. I started out as an Uncle Tupelo fan, when they were just a local band that played the little clubs and frat parties when I was in college, then moved directly into Wilco and Son Volt when they formed. This sounds really nuts, but sometimes it almost feels like divine providence that Jeff's music has been a huge part of my life for so long, and that his music would wind up mirroring my own dealings with depression, panic and anxiety. Corny as hell, I know, but I feel really lucky to have had his music with me all this time.

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Even "War on War" with the lines "You have to die if you want to want to be alive" and "You're gonna lose. You have to lose."

 

The last verse of Hate It Here, when he ends with "'cause I know you don't live here anymore". Jeff has such a way of breaking your heart but keeping a smile on your face it's really unique to his music. Your heart breaks for him but at the same time you relate to it, and are happy for him. He presents a narrorator that you can relate to, a narrorator that you feel you are, in a way that other writers wish they could. He brings out the best person in you, experiencing the worst feelings, emotions or situations. I don't want to go through the things that Jeff is talking about, but after hearing his words and his music, you almost want to experience them for yourself just to feel them. Most times though, at least for me, you already know and have felt exactly what he's talking about.

 

 

And of course, the bridge in Theologians. Listen to the version from Sunken Treasure. The lyrics, the way they fit into the music:

 

"I'm going away where you will look for me. Where I'm going you cannot come. No one is ever gonna take my life from me. I lay it down, a ghost is born"

"war on war" is one of his best and i love it in a million different ways. the only reason i didn't put it in the panic/depression-related list is that he sings it with such spirit, i feel completely uplifted by it and take it as a positive message, or at least mixed messages with positive results.

 

your mentioning the last verse of "hate it here" reminded me of "let me come home," which had me crying the first twenty or so times i listened to it. talk about naked despair and grief and confusion -- there it is. hey, it even has the word "panic" right there in it, just realized that now.

 

can you (or anyone contributing here) listen to the songs we're talking about every day? ever since i first heard them (last summer) i felt compelled to listen to them, over and over, every day. i loved them and had to do it. eventually it got so i couldn't tell anymore if they were making me happy/uplifted, sad, or both plus contemplative of course. a couple of friends recently thought they were making me more melancholy and suggested a hiatus. so i've forced myself not to listen to them the past few weeks, but it feels like something elemental, primitive, or fundamental to life is missing. maybe my friends were wrong . . .

 

yes, the "theologians" lyrics you mention give me chills. and the main version i listen to is from the "sunken treasure" dvd. beautiful performance -- as are just about all of them on that thing. actually, i bought that dvd just after i discovered wilco from the mermaid avenue songs. it was a magnificent introduction to jeff tweedy and everything he's about, including his ironic wit. the whole thing knocked my sox off. they're still off.

 

chompsky: well said!

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can you (or anyone contributing here) listen to the songs we're talking about every day? ever since i first heard them (last summer) i felt compelled to listen to them, over and over, every day. i loved them and had to do it. eventually it got so i couldn't tell anymore if they were making me happy/uplifted, sad, or both plus contemplative of course. a couple of friends recently thought they were making me more melancholy and suggested a hiatus. so i've forced myself not to listen to them the past few weeks, but it feels like something elemental, primitive, or fundamental to life is missing. maybe my friends were wrong . . .

 

I wrote about this, to an extent, about a year and a half ago when I was fighting off a depressive episode. It's here, if you're interested.

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I wrote about this, to an extent, about a year and a half ago when I was fighting off a depressive episode. It's here, if you're interested.

wow, poppydawn, you have the courage of jeff tweedy -- to say exactly what you mean. thanks very much for this. your words literally had me feeling that fall, that slipping into a black hole, which i too know too well. you eloquently put into words a state that most of the time can seem impossible to define.

 

what you wrote does worry me some. i'm not consciously depressed, but if i'm not, why have i for many months been pulled into those songs so deeply that they practically seem to make up my life? on the other hand, i think your listening to AGIB that day because it expresses your state was wise, and that not letting yourself listen to it more than once that day was even wiser.

 

i don't think i've ever before had such a powerful relationship with music as this, which is saying a lot, because music of numerous different kinds and artists has been extremely important to me all my life.

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Exactly! I latched onto "War on War" when I was going through cognitive behavioral therapy for my panic attacks. The idea that a panic attack feels like you're dying and the line, "You have to learn how to die if you want to want be alive" basically summed up the entire therapy experience for me. I've got this condition that makes me feel like I'm dying, and it's ruining my life. It's not until I learn to how to deal with these "deaths" that I'm going to be able to really live, instead of being trapped in this terrified, agoraphobic world where my emotions dictate my actions.

 

 

I will add that "Ashes of American Flags" also has a lot of panic parallels, for me. Maybe because I listened to it a lot when I was in therapy, too.

 

That verse absolutely nailed what my ever-present anxiety felt like. The entire song, for me, is a description of the loneliness and isolation these conditions bring. And that chorus, "If all my lies were always wishes/I know I would die if I could come back new" ... yeah.

 

That's exactly how I feel about War on War. I love the upbeat nature of it too. I love how he can sing about something so devistating but with such an uplifting tone. It gives you hope sort of. I'm glad you feel that same way.

 

That line in Ashes of American Flags is just pure emotion. If I could sum up all of my panic and depression issues in one line, this would probably be it. I love that he was able to sum up 2102394820394823049823 emtions and issues in one, perfect line. After I heard it, I was like "WOW All my lies ARE only wishes and I WOULD die if I could come back new."

 

It's nice to talk on this level about music. It's hard to find people who you can face to face explain this kind of thing too and they'll not only understand, but sort of have a similar viewpoint and experience and can relate. I could get into a lyrical disscussion about pretty much any of the songs that were mentioned here and more.

 

What I like about Jeff as a person/artist is that he actually is purposeful in what he does and thinks about things in depth. I've heard him say things like "Is buying cigarettes and Coke evil, or just cigarettes and Coke? Is the cash machine evil, or is it just blue" I mean, you can just tell the guy is a deep thinker and doesn't have any of that pretentious music business bullshit. More than jeff is a songwriter, musician, rock star, or any of that, he's an artist. A human being who has a hold on what he wants to say and how he wants to say it and for that, he has my infinite respect.

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Oh, this might be a long one. :)

 

"war on war" is one of his best and i love it in a million different ways. the only reason i didn't put it in the panic/depression-related list is that he sings it with such spirit, i feel completely uplifted by it and take it as a positive message, or at least mixed messages with positive results.

 

I was listening to it today and noticed something new. Even though it's so spirited, I get a real sense of anger from it. Sort of a white-knuckling against ... well, whatever. :) Glenn's drumming is downright militant.

 

can you (or anyone contributing here) listen to the songs we're talking about every day? ever since i first heard them (last summer) i felt compelled to listen to them, over and over, every day. i loved them and had to do it. eventually it got so i couldn't tell anymore if they were making me happy/uplifted, sad, or both plus contemplative of course. a couple of friends recently thought they were making me more melancholy and suggested a hiatus. so i've forced myself not to listen to them the past few weeks, but it feels like something elemental, primitive, or fundamental to life is missing. maybe my friends were wrong . . .

 

I tend to not gravitate towards the songs that conjure up the memories of panics and such. For the most part, I just pull them out when I need them.

 

Waaaaaaaaay back when I was in college, I went through my first really bad depressive episode. I latched onto the "Little Earthquakes" album by Tori Amos. It articulated so much of what I was feeling, and I would listen to it ad nauseum. Once the depression passed, I couldn't listen to it for years because it reminded me of laying in the dark in my room, trying to decide if I wanted to live or die. I sold the CD. Next depressive episode, I bought it again. I must have bought and sold that CD ten times over the course of five years before it finally started to lose its effect. But even now ... This weekend I was watching "120 Minutes" on VH1 Classic and they played "Silent All These Years". I had to turn it off. The sad thing is, I really liked that album and I feel like I ruined it by using it as a crutch.

 

wow, poppydawn, you have the courage of jeff tweedy -- to say exactly what you mean.

 

Thanks, but not quite. :) I only dump my guts to a few hundred people, not millions. :blush

 

what you wrote does worry me some. i'm not consciously depressed, but if i'm not, why have i for many months been pulled into those songs so deeply that they practically seem to make up my life? on the other hand, i think your listening to AGIB that day because it expresses your state was wise, and that not letting yourself listen to it more than once that day was even wiser.

 

Learned my lesson from the Tori Amos debacle. :) Seriously, though, just because you've connected with music created by an artist with mood issues that strongly resonates with lots of other people with mood disorders, doesn't necessarily mean you have a mood disorder, if that makes any sense. There are a lot of interviews with Jeff out there where he talks about how songs (and any art form, really) has a combination of meanings that come from what the artist had in mind and what the listener brings to it. Using "Theologians" as an example, one person might connect with it for the anxiety/depression themes it invokes. Another might respond strongly to the message about religion. Another might respond to that wonderfully jangly piano riff.

 

Having come from a similar upbringing as Jeff, in the same part of the country, I know I first connected with a lot of the regionalism in is writing. That still draws me in, too. It's hard for it not to, when I drive past the fountain from "New Madrid" almost daily. :)

 

 

It's nice to talk on this level about music. It's hard to find people who you can face to face explain this kind of thing too and they'll not only understand, but sort of have a similar viewpoint and experience and can relate. I could get into a lyrical disscussion about pretty much any of the songs that were mentioned here and more.

 

Same here. It's good to know that other people are hearing what I'm hearing, and maybe I'm not just projecting my own thoughts and feelings onto the songs. A little validation never hurt. :)

 

Thanks for the link.Just this afternoon I started to cry,in my car ,in my fight (with my daughter),listening AGIB.

 

Now,I

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{"I tend to not gravitate towards the songs that conjure up the memories of panics and such. For the most part, I just pull them out when I need them."}

 

i hope i'm setting up this reply correctly. non-techie here.

above: that sounds healthy. i do gravitate to those emotionally riveting and beautiful songs (maybe partly because i'm relatively new to them), but i'm sure it would be wiser to save those particular songs for needful times, as you say. after all, there are countless others of his that don't directly appeal to the panicked and/or depressed and are just great and thought-provoking in their own right in various and different ways.

 

a potent one i left off my list: "radio cure": "cheer up / honey i hope you can / there is something wrong with me" and "distance has no way / of making love understandable." it's so gorgeous and troubling, and gorgeous again. there's an almost primitive and grabbing honesty in these songs that can make you want to keep experiencing them -- as magnificent songs, both lyrically and musically -- even though you aren't necessarily looking to experience, again, what he's talking about.

 

{"Waaaaaaaaay back when I was in college, I went through my first really bad depressive episode. I latched onto the "Little Earthquakes" album by Tori Amos. It articulated so much of what I was feeling, and I would listen to it ad nauseum. Once the depression passed, I couldn't listen to it for years because it reminded me of laying in the dark in my room, trying to decide if I wanted to live or die. I sold the CD. Next depressive episode, I bought it again. I must have bought and sold that CD ten times over the course of five years before it finally started to lose its effect. But even now ... This weekend I was watching "120 Minutes" on VH1 Classic and they played "Silent All These Years". I had to turn it off. The sad thing is, I really liked that album and I feel like I ruined it by using it as a crutch."}

 

it's frustrating, isn't it -- to ruin a beautiful thing by overusing it as a crutch. i've had the same experience, in music and, in the more distant past, in other realms. i probably didn't buy and sell the same CD ten times, though! that's humorous and poignant at the same time. but lots of music from the past comes to mind for me when i read what you wrote above, songs that i love but will forever bring sadness because of associations at the time, such as rick danko's "it makes no difference," one of many examples. it's still a mystery after all these years, that mix of pain and pleasure, which was present then and is now also with the attraction to wilco.

 

 

{"Thanks, but not quite. :) I only dump my guts to a few hundred people, not millions. :blush"}

yah, but still: high kudos!

 

 

{"Learned my lesson from the Tori Amos debacle. :) Seriously, though, just because you've connected with music created by an artist with mood issues that strongly resonates with lots of other people with mood disorders, doesn't necessarily mean you have a mood disorder, if that makes any sense. There are a lot of interviews with Jeff out there where he talks about how songs (and any art form, really) has a combination of meanings that come from what the artist had in mind and what the listener brings to it. Using "Theologians" as an example, one person might connect with it for the anxiety/depression themes it invokes. Another might respond strongly to the message about religion. Another might respond to that wonderfully jangly piano riff."}

 

yes, but i do have mood disorders (longtime panic disorder and depression). they've been well under control for years with a lot of work plus the right meds. you never quite forget, though, that you're vulnerable to all that. i agree with your reference to jeff's view of both the artist and the listener contributing to what makes the whole experience, which means it's unique for every person. a lot of us have many things in common (which we need) but also have the challenges, musically and otherwise, that end up asking for our involvement and, because of that, become truly unique (which we also need) and long-term powerful.

 

"{Having come from a similar upbringing as Jeff, in the same part of the country, I know I first connected with a lot of the regionalism in is writing. That still draws me in, too. It's hard for it not to, when I drive past the fountain from "New Madrid" almost daily. :) "}

 

well, you're seriously entangled there then. there's a lot to be said for that. i love "new madrid"! first heard it only a few weeks ago, i think via an owl download.

 

poppydawn, many thanks for baring your soul as you have. i've gained a lot of insight because of it. my best to you.

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yikes! sorry for length, people.

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  • 4 years later...

I hope it's OK to revive this old thread, but I had never read all of it before and I'm thinking I may not be alone. I just spent about 2 hours down the rabbit hole and I feel more connected to Jeff Tweedy and this group of fans (I hate how silly that word sounds) than ever.

 

This started when a friend was telling me earlier today about his migraines and I was looking for a link to the NY Times article by Jeff where he talks about his history that led to the stint in rehab. I found it (link on first page of this thread) and then started thinking that this board had probably discussed it around the time it was first published. Yep--this is the thread.

 

If anyone else wants to invest the time, read the original article, then the comments below the article itself, not from Wilco fans primarily, but migraine/anxiety/panic attack sufferers. It's just so powerful to see, once again, how Jeff can connect to people in such a truthful, generous, resonant, helpful way. Then, of course, I had to read the 8 pages of VC posts, most of which were really inspiring in their honesty and openness, and even some links to blogs from the VC members (particularly moving was poppymom--is she still around?) OK, there was some jerkiness in all those posts, but it's easily skipped over. I should add that while I was reading all of this I was listening to A Ghost is Born, about 3 times all the way through, and my head is now so filled up with AGIB lyrics and fragments that I'm pretty much beside myself!

 

I can see now more than ever why some of the longtime VC members are nostalgic for the old days on this board. I wasn't on here back then, but it's good to know that these threads are still around. Enjoy. . .wallow. . . if you've got a few spare hours!

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The old days were not always that great.

 

Yeah, this thread is almost a perfect little time capsule, isn't it? :lol

 

Really fascinating to re-visit. And Sir Stewart still makes me laugh.

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Interesting timing on reviving this, Diane! It just hit me that the other conversation about Wilco's (perceived) creative slide since AGIB, dovetails exactly with the improvement of Jeff's mental and physical health. I know he rejects the idea that his suffering helped create great art, but it's hard to deny that when he was sick, the music was sick! Others have made this conjecture too, but the timing of the two threads was just too juicy not to grab onto.

 

From the thread about the Fox and Hedgehog theory, Spirit Dove said "One of the main reasons I fell in love with Wilco's music was because of Tweedy's vulnerability in laying his heart bare in the most beautiful, poetic way." She observed that she felt the last three records lack in that sublte and evasive quality, heart. I would never in a million years wish that kind of suffering on Jeff ever again, but perhaps it did contribute a dark poetry to the music that rarely shows its head these days. (OSM, I think, is a beautiful exception).

 

Anyway, fascinating stuff to ponder on a rainy Wednesday afternoon.

 

And what about Hell is Chrome? Fucking amazing song.

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Nothing like commenting on a four old thread...

 

The worst thing for me outside of the pain and the symptoms is the feeling that I'm either going to die or this may be the time it never stops...

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Interesting timing on reviving this, Diane! It just hit me that the other conversation about Wilco's (perceived) creative slide since AGIB, dovetails exactly with the improvement of Jeff's mental and physical health. I know he rejects the idea that his suffering helped create great art, but it's hard to deny that when he was sick, the music was sick! Others have made this conjecture too, but the timing of the two threads was just too juicy not to grab onto.

 

From the thread about the Fox and Hedgehog theory, Spirit Dove said "One of the main reasons I fell in love with Wilco's music was because of Tweedy's vulnerability in laying his heart bare in the most beautiful, poetic way." She observed that she felt the last three records lack in that sublte and evasive quality, heart. I would never in a million years wish that kind of suffering on Jeff ever again, but perhaps it did contribute a dark poetry to the music that rarely shows its head these days. (OSM, I think, is a beautiful exception).

 

Anyway, fascinating stuff to ponder on a rainy Wednesday afternoon.

 

And what about Hell is Chrome? Fucking amazing song.

 

I agree about OSM being an exception but when I thought about that, I realized that he was laying someone else's story bare so the vulnerability part still really wasn't there. In some ways, yes but not totally.

 

I completely agree about Hell is Chrome too. AGIB is holding up as one hell of a record.

 

On a side note, I'm also a migraine sufferer but have them managed pretty well with meds.

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I remember reading that article shortly after it was published. All I thought and felt about it has already been eloquently expressed here. Anxiety, panic, and depression really can take over one's life.

 

I love that he is open about what he has been through and the connection between music, creativity, expression, and healing. He is also fortunate to have people in his life who are supportive. Not everyone is supportive when their loved ones or friends fall apart.

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