It's time for a New Election Thread

[bleedorange]

It's like watching a comedy film. Only it's not a film. And then it's funny mixed with sad. An ashamed of a significant percentage of my country's judgement kind of sad.

 

 

That's how Mrs. Palin makes me feel.

 

 

How is this instance of Palin saying Northwest any better or worse than when Obama said he had been to 57 states or claimed to be in St. Louis while in Kansas City (or was it the other way around)?

[MattZ]

Instead of people that make less than 250k/year telling me why people making more than 250k should pay more in taxes, and instead of people making more than 250k/year (or the ability to make that much in the near future) telling me why they shouldn't, I'd like to hear from people making more than 250k/year voting for Obama. And people making less than 50k/year voting for McCain.

[lost highway]

So, the person making $4 million, who is already paying $1.5 million in federal income tax (not to mention all other forms of taxes), should have to pay an additional $40K, $80K, $120K, etc., just because he or she can? And for what exactly? How many more government programs are they expected to fund?

 

I am trying to find the line in your argument. Do you suggest that a tax hike for the top 5% is too high, or that it is too little to do anything?

 

Because if the top 5% of the public would really each be contributing an additional $40K to the state I can imagine that would create quite a total.

 

Do you oppose the tax cuts which you might receive?

 

Do you believe that McCain's continuation of cuts across the board will be able to get us out of a defecit, especially considering his military ambitions?

 

Do you oppose closing tax loops for fortune 500 mega-corps?

 

 

A lot of questions, but I feel the "tax fairness" thing went in a few circles on the last thread. Just trying to spike the punch a little here.

[M. (hristine]

Instead of people that make less than 250k/year telling me why people making more than 250k should pay more in taxes, and instead of people making more than 250k/year (or the ability to make that much in the near future) telling me why they shouldn't, I'd like to hear from people making more than 250k/year voting for Obama. And people making less than 50k/year voting for McCain.

I am of neither of those, but I have had conversations with both.

 

Ex husband, multi millionaire. Deep conscience, fiscally ultra conservative. Drives a 10 year old Honda Accord. "The Republicans are squanderers and war mongers."

 

My poor Evangelical friend: "Obama is the anti-Christ."

[Party @ the Moontower]

Instead of people that make less than 250k/year telling me why people making more than 250k should pay more in taxes, and instead of people making more than 250k/year (or the ability to make that much in the near future) telling me why they shouldn't, I'd like to hear from people making more than 250k/year voting for Obama. And people making less than 50k/year voting for McCain.

 

One of my very wealthy clients is voting for Obama because he believes his tax dollars will be spent @ home instead of on the war and more war. He also understands how losing the middle class could cost him money, his career, and his purpose. He is a lawyer by the way.

[solace]

Instead of people that make less than 250k/year telling me why people making more than 250k should pay more in taxes, and instead of people making more than 250k/year (or the ability to make that much in the near future) telling me why they shouldn't, I'd like to hear from people making more than 250k/year voting for Obama. And people making less than 50k/year voting for McCain.

 

funny thing is, i know a LOT of people (including 3 direct relatives) making over $250k voting for Obama who don't even flinch at his tax proposals. maybe the folks I know just aren't driven by money and greed?

[Party @ the Moontower]

My Evangelical friend: Obama is the anti-Christ.

 

 

oh my

[solace]

I am trying to find the line in your argument. Do you suggest that a tax hike for the top 5% is too high, or that it is too little to do anything?

 

Because if the top 5% of the public would really each be contributing an additional $40K to the state I can imagine that would create quite a total.

 

Do you oppose the tax cuts which you might receive?

 

Do you believe that McCain's continuation of cuts across the board will be able to get us out of a defecit, especially considering his military ambitions?

 

Do you oppose closing tax loops for fortune 500 mega-corps?

 

 

A lot of questions, but I feel the "tax fairness" thing went in a few circles on the last thread. Just trying to spike the punch a little here.

spot on

 

How is this instance of Palin saying Northwest any better or worse than when Obama said he had been to 57 states or claimed to be in St. Louis while in Kansas City (or was it the other way around)?

 

because Obama was clearly joking, and said so after the fact, yet all the video clips cut it off before that part?

[myboyblue]

Instead of people that make less than 250k/year telling me why people making more than 250k should pay more in taxes, and instead of people making more than 250k/year (or the ability to make that much in the near future) telling me why they shouldn't, I'd like to hear from people making more than 250k/year voting for Obama. And people making less than 50k/year voting for McCain.

 

I won't disclose household income but I know that I would do better from an income tax perspective under McCain. That said, I am voting for Obama as the macroeconomics data indicate that stock markets flourish under Democratic leadership. My personal experience is the same. Big picture - when the country does better, the economy, employment, etc. does better.

 

It's also a matter of the percentage of people that make over $250k and $600k as opposed to those under $50k. I think this all needs to be tempered but I believe that if you make more, you should pay more in taxes, donate more, etc.. That's a personal philosophy.

 

However, finance/economy is only a portion of my decision. It's more related to the current state of the country, international relations, etc

 

Ex husband, multi millionaire. Deep conscience, fiscally ultra conservative. Drives a 10 year old Honda Accord. "The Republicans are squanders and war mongers."

 

at least the ones in office the last 8 years are.

[solace]

So, the person making $4 million, who is already paying $1.5 million in federal income tax (not to mention all other forms of taxes), should have to pay an additional $40K, $80K, $120K, etc., just because he or she can? And for what exactly? How many more government programs are they expected to fund?

 

in a time of financial crisis and for the sake of helping out the middle class, who is the backbone of society and the driving force of the US economy? yes, yes i do.

 

am i saying these slight tax increases should remain permanent and continue to rise? no, and neither is Obama if you read his plan closely.

 

do you support tax policies that only further the gap between the middle class and the rich and blur the line between the middle class and poor? because many right-wing tax proposals definitely do.

 

nobody said anything about Gov't programs... how about paying down our damn debt first?

 

I won't disclose household income but I know that I would do better from an income tax perspective under McCain. That said, I am voting for Obama as the macroeconomics data indicate that stock markets flourish under Democratic leadership. My personal experience is the same. Big picture - when the country does better, the economy, employment, etc. does better.

 

It's also a matter of the percentage of people that make over $250k and $600k as opposed to those under $50k. I think this all needs to be tempered but I believe that if you make more, you should pay more in taxes, donate more, etc.. That's a personal philosophy.

 

However, finance/economy is only a portion of my decision. It's more related to the current state of the country, international relations, etc

 

at least the ones in office the last 8 years are.

 

 

more people need to feel the way you do

[M. (hristine]

oh my

I guess you missed the memo.

 

at least the ones in office the last 8 years are.

Yes, I should have added that as he has mostly voted Republican in the past.

[Moe_Syzlak]

Instead of people that make less than 250k/year telling me why people making more than 250k should pay more in taxes, and instead of people making more than 250k/year (or the ability to make that much in the near future) telling me why they shouldn't, I'd like to hear from people making more than 250k/year voting for Obama. And people making less than 50k/year voting for McCain.

As an individual, McCain's tax proposal would benefit me more, though I don't make over $250K. Once married in the spring, our joint income would be above the $250k mark...barely. Here is what I said in the previous thread:

QUOTE (bleedorange @ Oct 13 2008, 04:46 PM)

I fundamentally disagree with this concept. My wife and I work hard for the money we earn. We choose to save some, try to wisely invest some of it, and try to provide a decent lifestyle for ourselves and our daughter. But apparently, this income and these investment choices are considered, by Obama and others, to be too much money and the government should take more of it than it already does to give to other people.

 

This is not the government's job, and it lends more credence to the socialist claims that people are prone to make of Obama.

 

I don't read it that way at all. I'm in the camp that would pay more under Obama's plan, but the past eight years have shown, IMO, that a global economy such that it is cannot sustain the trickle down policies of Reaganomics (if they ever could). I would love to see government spend less, but we are in too big of a hole to simply spend less so our revenue needs to come from someplace (preferably not China) and I think those that can afford it should pay it. To me, that's country first. The GOP talking points will call it redistribution of wealth, socialism and giving hard-working folks' money to lazy slobs, but you're smarter than that. I think an apt analogy is rent. If you live in a nicer house and neighborhood, you'll pay more. I could pay next to nothing to live in a housing project, but I doubt many would choose to do that. Sure there are abusers, but the vast majority of people living in lower tax brackets DO work hard and barely scrape by. That needs to change, IMO, for the long-term health of our nation.

 

Now, if you believe that Reaganomics or some other policy is better suited to right the ship, I'd love to hear it. But don't assume anybody is pushing for socialism or doesn't have a valid opinion that simply differs from yours.

[Guest Jules]

One of my very wealthy clients is voting for Obama because he believes his tax dollars will be spent @ home instead of on the war and more war. He also understands how losing the middle class could cost him money, his career, and his purpose. He is a lawyer by the way.

Well, that explains it.

 

Confession: I don't really care that much about the tax thing. I definitely favor McCain's plan, but I'm not losing sleep at night over the potential Obama plan. The other differences, expressed more eloquently by Ikol in the previous thread, are more important to me. I also just don't trust Obama, and sometimes I think he doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

I trust this was vague enough for all of you.

[bleedorange]

I am trying to find the line in your argument. Do you suggest that a tax hike for the top 5% is too high, or that it is too little to do anything?

 

Because if the top 5% of the public would really each be contributing an additional $40K to the state I can imagine that would create quite a total.

 

Do you oppose the tax cuts which you might receive?

 

Do you believe that McCain's continuation of cuts across the board will be able to get us out of a defecit, especially considering his military ambitions?

 

Do you oppose closing tax loops for fortune 500 mega-corps?

 

 

A lot of questions, but I feel the "tax fairness" thing went in a few circles on the last thread. Just trying to spike the punch a little here.

 

My main concerns are:

 

1) Where does the requisite cut in spending come from to aid the deficit? Simply raising taxes on the wealthy to go along with added programs and additional stimulus packages will not be enough.

 

2) Again, when will it ever be enough? Plus, raising current rates to 39.6% to go along with an increase in capital gains to 20%-28% and an increase in dividend rates is not a good idea in a flailing economy.

 

3) What are McCain's military ambitions? From what I can tell defense spending would be cut by either candidate, but Obama wants to promise even more money to foreign aid for a global poverty initiative.

[solace]

I also just don't trust Obama, and sometimes I think he doesn't know what he's talking about.

you're right, at least McCain has admitted he doesn't know shit about the economy

[bleedorange]

I won't disclose household income but I know that I would do better from an income tax perspective under McCain. That said, I am voting for Obama as the macroeconomics data indicate that stock markets flourish under Democratic leadership. My personal experience is the same. Big picture - when the country does better, the economy, employment, etc. does better.

 

Doesn't the data also indicate that the market flourishes when capital gains rates are cut as opposed to increased?

[John Smith]

So, the person making $4 million, who is already paying $1.5 million in federal income tax (not to mention all other forms of taxes), should have to pay an additional $40K, $80K, $120K, etc., just because he or she can? And for what exactly? How many more government programs are they expected to fund?

 

The way I look at it is for the most part people have no trouble with the concept of paying more for a

[solace]

The way I look at it is for the most part people have no trouble with the concept of paying more for a "better seat" at a concert, or sporting event or for air travel. This is deemed to be OK. Higher taxes is simply paying for a better seat in America. I have a better seat (though not one of the 5% of the best seats) and don't mind paying more taxes at all if it makes our country a better place. I'm not just thinking of me. And face it I do benefit more than many of those in the lower income brackets. No I don't draw unemployment, no I don't get food stamps. Yes the company I work for is An "American interest" which benefits from the deployment of our military around the world (though I think we would be fine without it too), as well as our nation's ability to negotiate treaties and from our state department and other domestic agencies. We benefit from domestic policy and tax laws, which the interpretation of supplies me with a comfortable living. So I do have a much better seat in the house and benefit more from living in America than most, and paying more is not killing me. Could I use more? Always. My wants are vast, complex and expensive, but I can live without some of my wants.

 

Does this mean I favor unrestrained taxation? Hell no, I want the stewards of my money to act responsibly which they have not been doing under republican rule. Maybe an over simplification, but It'll have to do for now. If Obama said no cuts I would be fine with it, in fact right now I would prefer it. I would rather have things fixed than a tax cut.

holy shit that's the best analogy ever... mind if i quote you on that?

[John Smith]

Confession: I don't really care that much about the tax thing. I definitely favor McCain's plan, but I'm not losing sleep at night over the potential Obama plan. The other differences, expressed more eloquently by Ikol in the previous thread, are more important to me. I also just don't trust Obama, and sometimes I think he doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

What exactly is it about McCains plan you favor? Is it the trickle down ecnomics? Do you still believe that works? It hasn't yet and tax cuts have never paid for themselves. I really am curious why you like his plan better.

 

In all honesty I seriously doubt anyone on this baord is a top 5% person, though I have been wrong before. To me on the financial end of things, this is peopel voting against their best personal interests. Though I did see a study once where somethign like 20+% of the peopl in the US felt that they were in the top 5%. Maybe that is it.

 

holy shit that's the best analogy ever... mind if i quote you on that?

 

Be My Guest.

[lost highway]

My main concerns are:

 

3) What are McCain's military ambitions? From what I can tell defense spending would be cut by either candidate,

 

You don't remember McCain's new hit single "bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" (sung to the tune of a beach boys hit). McCain is a hawk. Most that praise him acknowledge that.

[Moe_Syzlak]

In all honesty I seriously doubt anyone on this baord is a top 5% person, though I have been wrong before. To me on the financial end of things, this is peopel voting against their best personal interests. Though I did see a study once where somethign like 20+% of the peopl in the US felt that they were in the top 5%. Maybe that is it.

Wait... who is voting against their personal interests? As I said, I benefit more from the McCain plan on the surface. But I believe that is a short-term benefit at best. I am not being altruistic by voting for Obama; I believe his plan is better for long-term viability and will end up benefitting me and my future children the most.

[John Smith]

The republicans have a new campaign hittin Bidens comemnt on paying your taxes. Friedman had a pretty good oped on it recently...

 

 

Palin

[Guest Jules]

What exactly is it about McCains plan you favor? Is it the trickle down ecnomics? Do you still believe that works? It hasn't yet and tax cuts have never paid for themselves. I really am curious why you like his plan better.

I benefit more personally from McCain's plan.

 

Edit: What exactly is the "Top 5%"?

[John Smith]

Wait... who is voting against their personal interests? As I said, I benefit more from the McCain plan on the surface. But I believe that is a short-term benefit at best. I am not being altruistic by voting for Obama; I believe his plan is better for long-term viability and will end up benefitting me and my future children the most.

 

So you are a 5%'er. Great, but I did put a caveat in my statement about possibly being wrong that there are none on this board.

[Winston Legthigh]

Edit: What exactly is the "Top 5%"?

According to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_inc...e_United_States

 

Top 5% roughly corresponds with $150k or more (for household).

 

$100k puts you at top 15%.