Wilco ex-member sues frontman Tweedy

[Rusty Shackleford]

I hope someone posts a copy of the actual complaint, because without it there's just too much baseless speculation, which I will add to here.

 

1. There's no way he can sue Jeff for anything related to the Sam Jones film. Jeff had little to do with it (except as a subject--same as Jay), plus it was filmed 8 years ago, with Jay's complete knowledge and cooperation. Unless Illinois's statute of limitations is really long, this is a total nonstarter.

 

2. The royalties issue could be interesting. First, it sounds like there's some sort of written agreement that Jay might arguably be able to enforce against Jeff, although there are at least two big problems here--1) he didn't sign it; and 2) it was a long time ago. But second, there is the issue of compensation for live performances of his compositions. I think he should be paid for those, and I assumed he had been getting paid (though probably not much).

 

3. As for the timing, I hate to speculate here, but unless Jay's a total idiot (a distinct possibility), he should have made a formal demand of Jeff/Tony/Wilco before filing the suit. It's at least possible that he went to them and asked for more money due to his medical condition and they told him no. It would be interesting (to say the least) to know how all that went down.

 

All in all, a sad situation. I thought that the new album might finally be the first to avoid all the "ever-changing lineup" and drama talk in the press, but that won't happen now.

[W(TF)]

Wow, I'm amazed at all the Jay hating here. The guy helped create a lot of music we all know and love, and many songs you'd be disappointed not to hear at a 2009 Wilco show. Shit like this happens, it doesn't mean JB is a dick or that this has to 'end badly'.

 

The only speculating I'll do is that this thread should probably be closed.

[Central Scrutinizer]

I hope someone posts a copy of the actual complaint, because without it there's just too much baseless speculation, which I will add to here.

I've cover courts -- both civil and criminal -- and from what I've seen in the AP, Trib and ST stories, I would bet the reporter picked that filing clean for any information. you're not going to see anything more unless discoveries are filed and made available.

 

I guess what could be gleaned from the report was whether Bennett filed through an attorney (assumed). If so, the attorney would have sent some notification to Tweedy, Tony and Nonsuch, saying, "here we come." If JB's attorney actually filed, that means Tweedy/Tony/et. al. believe it's without merit.

 

If Bennett filed on his own, and filed without exhausting negotiations, I envision a sitcom-esque court scene.

 

[mastershake]

I actually see this thing getting settled rather quickly.

 

And while Jay was, of course, an integral part of the band during those years, why does everyone feel the need to go to extremes when describing his contributions to Wilco?

I think he was a huge part. Wilco would not be as popular as they are now if it wasn't for him. Summerteeth and Yankee Hotel Foxtrot would not have been as great of albums if it wasn't for Jay Bennett pushing Wilco's sound in the direction he did. Tweedy was far from a one man show in the band when it came to arranging the songs. If you watch the movie, it is obvious that Jay had a lot of influence over Wilco's sound just because of his ability as a multi-instrumentalist to completely take apart and reconstruct songs with different instruments and different arrangements. I like to believe that all those weird sounds and noise that appear in the recording were Jay's ideas, but I may be wrong on that.

 

The other thing that was obvious in the movie was that Jay was very annoying. I have similar friends like that who I like hanging out with, but I find some parts of their personality extremely annoying and they get on my nerves. Jay is someone who is a huge naysayer and who constantly takes opposite sides in an issue just for the sport of arguing about something whether he really believes what he is saying or not. It was obvious that Tweedy got to a breaking point with Jay's personality and decided to let him go and move on without him. However, when he finally let him go, the majority of Yankee Hotel Foxtrot had already been completed.

 

It was after that album that we began to see the gradual shift in Wilco's music from experimental rock/ experimental alternative country more toward just mainstream "dad's rock" as many people refer to it. I seriously doubt Sky Blue Sky would have sounded anything close to how it turned out had Jay still been influencing the music. Parts of ghost is born came off sounding flat and uninteresting (for example - Spiders or Handshake Drugs). Had Jay been in the band would that have been the case? Spiders came out the way it did on the album because Jeff was going through his troubles with pain killers and he couldn't play guitar to the best of his ability. Knowing that (as we now do from interviews), I wonder would Jay have done something differently with the arrangement of the song to spice it up (like Nels does live)? And to be honest I love what they do with it live now that Nels is involved. But still it marks a significant shift in their music from the days of being there and summerteeth and YHF. Sky Blue Sky is a complete 180 from their earlier tendencies.

 

Jeff said when he was making Sky Blue Sky that he wanted to use less metaphors and illusions in his lyrics and instead write songs for people to sing that have literal meanings. Maybe I'm speaking for myself, but I think Wilco was their best when Jeff was actively trying to manipulate his lyrics with his poetry to make something that once analyzed had more substance than the literal meaning of the words. There is something just beautiful about the lines:

 

Crazy rides rockets

Waves a magic wand

Empty out your pockets

Words without a song

 

I myself have found

A real rival in myself

I am hoping for

The re-arrival of my health

 

It's impossible to know if Jeff would have continued writing songs like this had Jay still been in the band, but you have to think he'd be pushing for more of an experimental Wilco instead of mainstream rock (which is what Sky Blue Sky basically was). Then of course maybe a lot of Jeff's originality during this period was attributable to the pain killers. But it makes you wonder what could have been. I think Jay and Jeff relationship was a lot like Lennon and McCartney. Near the end of the Beatles they hated each other but were still writing some great stuff and were giving each other ideas on their songs despite their intense competition. The Beatles were better for it with their conflicting personalities because if Lennon heard something in McCartney's song he didn't like, he'd wouldn't hesitate saying something. Same the other away around. I've said this before, but I wonder if anyone ever questions Jeff's judgment. Jeff is unquestionably now the main song writer, and while maybe Pat Sansone or Mikael Jorgenson come up with a riff every now to help Jeff build a song around, it's ultimately Jeff who decides the direction of Wilco. Jay isn't there to argue with him, play things differently, and basically be an ass until Jeff concedes that he has a good idea and incorporates it in some way. There's too much group think in the group and it seems to be effecting the quality of the music.

 

That said it would be wrong to doubt Tweedy's ability to pull it off since he's so incredibly talented. The new album is still at the top of my list of albums to pick up this year despite my reservations about the direction the band is headed in. They still are quite good live.

[remphish1]

When Jay left the band, I wasn't bothered much by it. I liked Jay, but always felt it was Jeff's band. And Jeff validated my thoughts of him by making strong contributions to Loose Fur records, getting a new Wilco lineup together and putting together an under-rated gem in AGIB, along with Wilco Book.

 

But hearing Sky Blue Sky and some of the new songs, I can hear what it was that Jay added to the band. Jeff's still great, but in my opinion, Jeff with Jay's assistance was greater.

 

 

A.M. was a pretty great record, but Being There is where Wilco really took off. And it's hard to not think that Jay contributed greatly to it's sound. Summerteeth and YHF have Bennett all over it. Most would agree that those 2 records rank at or near the top of Wilco records. And Jay's Mermaid Avenue contributions were also solid.

 

 

I don't put Jay at the same artistic level as Jeff, but they complimented each other very well.

 

Well said!

[Buford T. Justice]

For whatever it's worth, $50,000 is the jurisdictional minimum for the Cook County Law Division. That's why Bennett's complaint included language claiming damages "in excess of" $50,000. If he did not specifically plead this amount, he would risk having the case removed to the Municipal Division where, among other things, the case may be subject to limitations on damages and mandatory arbitration. The damages claim does not restrict the amount of money Bennett can seek at trial, it's merely a formality to keep the case in the Law Division.

[jakobnicholas]

3. As for the timing, I hate to speculate here, but unless Jay's a total idiot (a distinct possibility), he should have made a formal demand of Jeff/Tony/Wilco before filing the suit. It's at least possible that he went to them and asked for more money due to his medical condition and they told him no. It would be interesting (to say the least) to know how all that went down.

 

 

I would think Jay DID talk to Jeff/Tony/Wilco first. It would be an ass move by Jay to file a lawsuit out of the blue.

 

 

ASSUMING Jay did talk to them first, Jeff/Tony/Wilco might be regretting they didn't nip it in the bud by reaching some sort of compromise/agreement. The last thing they want to be talking about on all their Wilco (The Album) press interviews is Jay Bennett.

 

 

I can't imagine worse timing for Wilco. It seems best for Jeff/Tony/Wilco to find some sort of resolution ASAP.

[deepseacatfish]

On the subject of radio and live performances...since it seems many people are concerned about this...

 

Both of those are handled by the 3 main songwriting associations: BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC. If I remember right, Jay as well as Jeff are on BMI. Basically venues, radio stations, and television programs pay for a "license" to use BMI's song catalog. The venues then produce a list (recorded over random periods of time) of the songs they played and the royalties are distributed to the songwriters (ie. Jay/Jeff if they are listed on the song) based on that. Since it's all handled through song writing credits...and not through the band performing Jay should be getting his fair shake from BMI...with Jeff having nothing to do with it.

 

On the other hand, record sales and movie licensing would all fall under the band's management and so there could be a legitimate claim of unpaid royalties there as well as questions regarding the documentary.

 

There's no way for me to know what the heck happened or why they couldn't agree to put this matter behind them privately, but I am sad to see that it has come to this. I say that without any knowledge of whether Jeff/Wilco are right or Jay is right. My guess is that, like most things in life, they are both a little right and both a little wrong.

 

In the grand scheme of lawsuits and headaches, $50,000 is not that much money. So this may be about principle. But I am going to avoid speculating.

Yes.

[dondoboy]

The only speculating I'll do is that this thread should probably be closed.

2nd thread closure encouragement.

[Bhickman]

I like to believe that all those weird sounds and noise that appear in the recording were Jay's ideas, but I may be wrong on that.

 

you would be. Jay states in Kot's book that he was upset more "melodic" songs were left off in favor of other songs that were more obtuse (not his word).

 

the weird sounds and noise as you describe it were Jeff's desire. He was heavily into working with Jim O'Rourke and looking to do something more avant garde (the best way I can boil it down) and was obsessed with the Conet Project, the military code signals.

 

Jeff was tapping into a feeling of loss on YHF...a loss of place, of space and of personality (my opinion)...Jay could have easily made Summerteeth 2 if it weren't for Jeff's artistic vision.

[J_Lefty]

For whatever it's worth, $50,000 is the jurisdictional minimum for the Cook County Law Division. That's why Bennett's complaint included language claiming damages "in excess of" $50,000. If he did not specifically plead this amount, he would risk having the case removed to the Municipal Division where, among other things, the case may be subject to limitations on damages and mandatory arbitration. The damages claim does not restrict the amount of money Bennett can seek at trial, it's merely a formality to keep the case in the Law Division.

 

I know Jay shaped Wilco, etc, but this whole thing still smacks of gold digging. The main work in question came out almost seven years ago... suddenly Jay has expenses and this is a big issue.

[Guest Speed Racer]

ASSUMING Jay did talk to them first, Jeff/Tony/Wilco might be regretting they didn't nip it in the bud by reaching some sort of compromise/agreement. The last thing they want to be talking about on all their Wilco (The Album) press interviews is Jay Bennett.

 

I can't imagine worse timing for Wilco. It seems best for Jeff/Tony/Wilco to find some sort of resolution ASAP.

 

You know, since it is their first two-album run with one line-up, I imagine Jay would be getting his share of ink anyway. Hell, I'd like a dollar for everytime they mention UT/Jay F in the W(TA) press.

 

I think if they didn't settle/work this out beforehand, they did so at the advice of their attorneys on the assumption that Jay doesn't have any legal traction. That, or the amount he wanted was way beyond his share, and they couldn't talk him down.

 

Worse timing? They'll be getting more press now, by outlets that wouldn't usually cover this sort of thing, or more articles in outlets that already do, all with a blurb about W(TA) dropping on June 30. Sounds to me like a headache, but not a black cloud of death.

 

I know Jay shaped Wilco, etc, but this whole thing still smacks of gold digging. The main work in question came out almost seven years ago... suddenly Jay has expenses and this is a big issue.

 

Like I said, can any of us honestly say we wouldn't try this route ourselves if we needed money really badly? If he is entitled to it and he can seek it out, why shouldn't he? If he isn't, but legitimately thought he could be, what's the harm?

[MattZ]

For whatever it's worth, $50,000 is the jurisdictional minimum for the Cook County Law Division. That's why Bennett's complaint included language claiming damages "in excess of" $50,000. If he did not specifically plead this amount, he would risk having the case removed to the Municipal Division where, among other things, the case may be subject to limitations on damages and mandatory arbitration. The damages claim does not restrict the amount of money Bennett can seek at trial, it's merely a formality to keep the case in the Law Division.

 

Nice. The first good post in this thread. Thanks Buford T. Justice. Makes sense.

[Synthesizer Patel]

i think wilco should make a counter claim, stating that Bennett's natty-dreads ruined all their band photos between the albums Being There and Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. that must have held back their record sales by the hundreds of thousands, and cost the band huge amounts of potential spondulics.

[jff]

It's impossible to know if Jeff would have continued writing songs like this had Jay still been in the band, but you have to think he'd be pushing for more of an experimental Wilco instead of mainstream rock (which is what Sky Blue Sky basically was).

 

 

It seems to me the movie portrayed Jay as the rock guy. Jay wanted to play a bunch of easy rockers at the Grant Park show rather than learning how to play live versions of the YHF stuff. Then Jay and Jeff had their tiff over one guitar vs. two guitars. Jay took the side of two guitars, citing it as "more rockin'". Jeff said two guitars was obsolete, sending Jay to the dictionary.

 

So I guess if it weren't for Jay Wilco would have been neither rockin' nor experimental.

 

Leaving what, exactly?

[SGL]

I respect Jay Bennett as a great musician, but if Jay is so pressed for money to pay for his surgery, why go through all of this when lawyers (good ones at least...) fees are rather high and there is no way to tell if he's going to win or lose.. It just doesn't seem like a smart thing for him to be doing right now. He should get his surgery and get healthy before he does any sort of legal action against Jeff/the band.

[Rusty Shackleford]

I've cover courts -- both civil and criminal -- and from what I've seen in the AP, Trib and ST stories, I would bet the reporter picked that filing clean for any information. you're not going to see anything more unless discoveries are filed and made available.

 

Yes, but the reports don't indicate who else (if anyone) is being sued, nor do they explain why Jeff would be responsible for anything to do with the Sam Jones movie, or what arrangements (if any) Jay alleges he made for payment for his songwriting contributions. Jay would have spelled out his side of the story in the complaint, and done so in a way to explain why, e.g. the statute of limitations or the absence of a written agreement don't preclude his claim.

[jff]

I respect Jay Bennett as a great musician, but if Jay is so pressed for money to pay for his surgery, why go through all of this when lawyers (good ones at least...) fees are rather high and there is no way to tell if he's going to win or lose.. It just doesn't seem like a smart thing for him to be doing right now. He should get his surgery and get healthy before he does any sort of legal action against Jeff/the band.

 

 

Depends. Is there a documentary film crew following Jay through this process?

[jakobnicholas]

Jeff was tapping into a feeling of loss on YHF...a loss of place, of space and of personality (my opinion)...Jay could have easily made Summerteeth 2 if it weren't for Jeff's artistic vision.

 

 

You're backing up those of us who liked Jeff and Jay working togther.

 

It's my belief that Jay hugely helped Jeff get away from the "alt-country pop" present on A.M. Would Misunderstood or Sunken Treasure or Red Eyed and Blue/I Got You exist in it's grand form without Jay? Would Summerteeth, with it's dark lyrics, have beens so great without Jay's sometimes bright 70's pop sounds and textures? Conversely, would YHF have been the "masterpiece" it was without Jeff pushing back at Jay's desire for arrangements similar to Summerteeth?

 

 

Venus Stop the Train, to me, is the perfect example of how great Tweedy and Bennett could be when working together. I can hear both artists' influence on that song.

[Central Scrutinizer]

i think wilco should make a counter claim, stating that Bennett's natty-dreads ruined all their band photos between the albums Being There and Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. that must have held back their record sales by the hundreds of thousands, and cost the band huge amounts of potential spondulics.

... or that he caused them to lose the security deposit on the loft due to cigarette burns.

[rhino4evr]

Thanks for answering my questions.

 

 

Opinions and speculation generally should be based on something (besides liking one guy better than another).

 

I didn't call your opinions irrelevant, I only suggested that the facts that Jeff did not personally write the DVD contract, and that Jeff is not stealing checks intended for Jay, are irrelevant to both Jay's lawsuit and this discussion.

 

OK, now I know you are a lunatic. Thanks for proving it once again.

 

My opinions and speculation are based on pretty simple business contract law. If you are making a work that will be bringing in money then you usually sign some sort of contract. Jeff does not pay the band, his management company arranges that. I don't see how anything I said was irrelevant to the lawsuit or the discussion when it's directly related to the speculation on both the lawsuit and the discussion. Get off the high horse. Im not one of the posters making fun of Jay's hair or hip replacement.

 

I will re state my opinions in moron speak for you...

 

1. 50,000 is not a lot of money for a band as big as Wilco

2. If anyone is getting money from the film/record album a contract of some sort must have been signed. Unless they are complete idiots (but I am willing to bet they are not).

3. This will probably be settled for a lower sum due to the cost of a trial.

 

OMG SO IRRELEVANT!!

 

I forgot to mention Jay's hair smells and he has a bad hip..OMG he sucks SO much.

 

retards...

[jakobnicholas]

Worse timing? They'll be getting more press now, by outlets that wouldn't usually cover this sort of thing, or more articles in outlets that already do, all with a blurb about W(TA) dropping on June 30.

 

 

True. But Jeff DOES NOT want to have every Wilco (The Album) interviewer ask him about Jay's lawsuit.

[Synthesizer Patel]

... or that he caused them to lose the security deposit on the loft due to cigarette burns.

 

yeah, but Jeff's puke stains on the toilet wall also played a big part in them losing that deposit - let's not blame everything on Bennett.

[Central Scrutinizer]

You're backing up those of us who liked Jeff and Jay working togther.

 

It's my belief that Jay hugely helped Jeff get away from the "alt-country pop" present on A.M. Would Misunderstood or Sunken Treasure or Red Eyed and Blue/I Got You exist in it's grand form without Jay? Would Summerteeth, with it's dark lyrics, have beens so great without Jay's sometimes bright 70's pop sounds and textures? Conversely, would YHF have been the "masterpiece" it was without Jeff pushing back at Jay's desire for arrangements similar to Summerteeth?

 

Venus Stop the Train, to me, is the perfect example of how great Tweedy and Bennett could be when working together. I can hear both artists' influence on that song.

Good points, but it was what it was. Trying to extrapolate whatever came together to make ST and YHF and attempt to distill who caused what or what might have been is impossible. Conjecture that Jay Bennett staying with Wilco would have made any difference in the band's artistic direction (and whether the band would still exist to this day, rather than a solo Jeff Tweedy being Jeff Tweedy, or Bennett and/or Tweedy being a statistic) is impossible at the worst, misguided at the least. It's eight years later, both men are completely different people, in completely different places/mind/temperment/wealth-poverty/drug habits than they were then.

 

It's the same argument as pairing teams of long ago against current teams and trying to figure how they would turn out playing one another. It's fun to yack about but there's nothing tangible to be gained from it.

[Guest Speed Racer]

True. But Jeff DOES NOT want to have every Wilco (The Album) interviewer ask him about Jay's lawsuit.

 

He also probably doesn't want every interviewer since forever to ask him about Jay B/Jay F/Reprise, but that seems to happen anyway. Think of it this way: Wilco is either recording, touring or promoting an album at any given time. No matter when Jay sued them, the next promotion cycle would include tons of questions about the lawsuit: "What was it like writing songs for the new album during the suit? Is, 'Get off my Back, Bitch,' a response to the debacle? Some people think it harkens back to Reprise, or perhaps your beef with Jay Farrar." "You spent a lot of your break from touring meeting with attorneys. Was that hard on the family? How did that manifest in the creative process?"