The Grateful Dead

[jw harding]

Feel like the film and all the points you bring up have already been addressed in this thread. 

 

Who is the random nobody you're talking about? Steve Silberman? He's a pretty renowned Head, journalist, activist. Or Nick Paumergarten? An articulate Deadhead who writes for the New Yorker. Felt they were excellent representatives of the Deadhead experience. 

 

Feel like the film is pretty beloved, except by people who are upset that certain things were left out of a 5 hour film on the 30 year history of the band. The intention of the film was not to be a wikipedia entry on the band, but to tell a story. And I think that was done effectively and artistically. There have been other films made about the band (Anthem to Beauty, Grateful Dead Movie, Other One), and there will be many more. None will be definitive and perfect. Expecting that will lead to disappointment. 

[jff]

Feel like the film and all the points you bring up have already been addressed in this thread. 

 

Who is the random nobody you're talking about? Steve Silberman? He's a pretty renowned Head, journalist, activist. Or Nick Paumergarten? An articulate Deadhead who writes for the New Yorker. Felt they were excellent representatives of the Deadhead experience. 

 

Feel like the film is pretty beloved, except by people who are upset that certain things were left out of a 5 hour film on the 30 year history of the band. The intention of the film was not to be a wikipedia entry on the band, but to tell a story. And I think that was done effectively and artistically. There have been other films made about the band (Anthem to Beauty, Grateful Dead Movie, Other One), and there will be many more. None will be definitive and perfect. Expecting that will lead to disappointment. 

 

I don't really buy that.  The Tom Petty three hour film was much more thorough, and covered a similar time span, so it can certainly be done.  Same for the Rush documentary, or the Pearl Jam doc, although that one covers a shorter time span.  It seemed to me that this film was saying "the band was a chaotic mess with a quality control problem, and that's exactly what this film will be."

 

The nobody was the suspenders guy who said he would be able to relate to deadheads 500 years from now more than he can relate to people today (as if there aren't deadheads currently living for him to relate to).  Something only an acid casualty would think up.

 

EDIT:  I looked back several pages, and couldn't find any substantive discussion of the film.  Can you point me to a page?

[jw harding]

Well, Tom Petty is boring and derivative nonsense. They should've been able to fit a movie about him into 15 minutes. Do you really think Pearl Jam and Rush had anywhere near the cultural or musical impact that the Grateful Dead had? Anyway, thanks for sharing your perspective. Good to get a sense of how people base their opinions. I'm with suspenders guy.

[jff]

Well, Tom Petty is boring and derivative nonsense. They should've been able to fit a movie about him into 15 minutes. Do you really think Pearl Jam and Rush had anywhere near the cultural or musical impact that the Grateful Dead had? Anyway, thanks for sharing your perspective. Good to get a sense of how people base their opinions. I'm with suspenders guy.

 

None of that is relevant to this discussion, except the part about musical impact (which was ignored in the film) but it does reveal that only praise for the Dead (and everything in the Dead galaxy) is welcome here, and anything less than praise will be met with lashing out against all other music.  I have found that to be an utterly pathetic and predictable trait of deadheads, and I'm sorry to see it here on a WIlco based forum.  

[Analogman]

I don't really buy that.  The Tom Petty three hour film was much more thorough, and covered a similar time span, so it can certainly be done.  Same for the Rush documentary, or the Pearl Jam doc, although that one covers a shorter time span.  It seemed to me that this film was saying "the band was a chaotic mess with a quality control problem, and that's exactly what this film will be."

 

The nobody was the suspenders guy who said he would be able to relate to deadheads 500 years from now more than he can relate to people today (as if there aren't deadheads currently living for him to relate to).  Something only an acid casualty would think up.

 

EDIT:  I looked back several pages, and couldn't find any substantive discussion of the film.  Can you point me to a page?

 

I found the film lacking myself. I am not a Deadhead - although I do enjoy listening to and talking about the GD from time to time. It seems to me they just did not go deep enough for lack of a better phrase. 

[jw harding]

None of that is relevant to this discussion, except the part about musical impact (which was ignored in the film) but it does reveal that only praise for the Dead (and everything in the Dead galaxy) is welcome here, and anything less than praise will be met with lashing out against all other music.  I have found that to be an utterly pathetic and predictable trait of deadheads, and I'm sorry to see it here on a WIlco based forum.  

We talk shit about the Dead all the time in here. I think there's just an expectation that the shit talking be based in reality or a consistent and informed perspective. I think you are lacking in the latter, as your lack of knowledge of who Steve Silberman is would indicate. One of the problems with the Grateful Dead is that in order to understand them, you have to get really deep, or there are many things you just won't catch. 

 

You want to talk shit about the Dead, I can do that all day long.

[calvino]

Yeah - I thought the film was way too focused on Garcia. Bar-Lev should have made two doc's - one on Garcia and the other on the Grateful Dead.

 

I do think one can hate cameras and mug for them at the same time, though.

[Analogman]

That's a good idea. 

[jw harding]

Yeah - I thought the film was way too focused on Garcia. Bar-Lev should have made two doc's - one on Garcia and the other on the Grateful Dead.

That would make some sense. Would be nice to get into the back stories of other band members. Although the Other One film delved nicely into Weir. But I think Garcia is rightly the center of the story - the other members were following his vision and stated such in the film, and everything depended on him, for better and worse.

[jff]

We talk shit about the Dead all the time in here. I think there's just an expectation that the shit talking be based in reality or a consistent and informed perspective. I think you are lacking in the latter, as your lack of knowledge of who Steve Silberman is would indicate. One of the problems with the Grateful Dead is that in order to understand them, you have to get really deep, or there are many things you just won't catch. 

 

You want to talk shit about the Dead, I can do that all day long.

 

I don't need or desire to prove my dead cred to you, and not knowing who the "celebrity" deadheads are is the world's biggest non-issue.  Who cares about them?  I brought up legitimate and reasonable criticisms of the film itself (and left out plenty more, like the way Hunter's lyrics are treated like bible verses...but also, in fairness, left out some things I did like, such as the Europe '72 footage, seeing the crew setting up the wall of sound, Barbara Meier's segment, and some other parts), which were met with rancor, instead of consideration, mostly if not entirely from you.

 

I have gone back farther in this thread than I did earlier and read the discussion of the film.  (I suppose the film has been out for longer than I thought.) It touches on a little of what I brought up, but only in the vaguest terms.  I offered numerous specific criticisms, which isn't the same as shit talking. Tell me which of my criticisms are not based in reality and I'll gladly stfu.

 

If a six part documentary is not the time to do as thorough a dive into a band as possible, then when is?  There's probably not going to be a longer film about them any time soon. 

[jw harding]

You completely mischaracterized or misunderstood what Silberman said about relating to Deadheads 500 years from now. Sorry, after I read that, it was hard to take anything else you wrote seriously. You don't need to prove shit to anyone, but that doesn't mean you're not out of your depth on this subject. And yet, you keep trying...

[jff]

You completely mischaracterized or misunderstood what Silberman said about relating to Deadheads 500 years from now. Sorry, after I read that, it was hard to take anything else you wrote seriously. You don't need to prove shit to anyone, but that doesn't mean you're not out of your depth on this subject. And yet, you keep trying...

 

Silberman said he'd be able to relate to them because he deeply knows one aspect of their life.  I get what he thinks he's saying, but none of us can know how people, or even deadheads specifically, 500 years from now will view the Dead, or anything else, so he's just spouting nonsense for the sake of romanticizing his passion for being a deadhead.  Also, saying he can relate to a subculture in the distant future better than he can relate to people in general today...do you not see how that's a fraudulent comparison?  This is not "informed perspective", it's a guess, so don't hold me to a higher standard than you hold this guy, who I assume you think is an authority on the subject. 

 

But ignoring that, what else did I say that you think was not based in reality (reality, in the context of this discussion, being what is stated and shown in the film.)  Or are you just going to allow yourself to be hung up on one dumb Silberman quote and ignore everything else I said?

 

As an aside, the notion that there's some sort of litmus test or bar exam that must be passed before discussing the GD with you is probably the least GD-ish thing I've ever heard in my life.

[Sun Caught Fire]

None of that is relevant to this discussion, except the part about musical impact (which was ignored in the film) but it does reveal that only praise for the Dead (and everything in the Dead galaxy) is welcome here, and anything less than praise will be met with lashing out against all other music.  I have found that to be an utterly pathetic and predictable trait of deadheads, and I'm sorry to see it here on a WIlco based forum.  

 

Anyone who would type that last sentence with its unfounded generalization and personal attack worthy of the alt right is in my book a close minded asshole, here or on any other forum, though I am confident it was a reflection of the frustration this or any other forum can bring and not a reflection of your true self.

 

Lack of cooperation and access impacted Long Strange Trip and it certainly had its weak points (as did the band and, most notably, JG insistence that no one lead it properly thus leading to the mess you rightly note), though overall i really enjoyed it up to the slow and steady decline of Garcia. You seem to totally misconstrue the nature and basis of JG's desire for a more simple life than having to keep touring to support a mammoth organization as that was the basis of his comment about living off the small ice cream income rather than continue to tour. I will side with Weir here who feels 1989 and 1990 were the peak of Dead performance. Personally i prefer 1970, pre-1970 and 1977 followed closely by the 89-90 shows and various pockets here and there - -  including the 5 i saw that we are currently celebrating the 30th anniversary of from Red Rocks and Telluride - -, but your fall back to over generalizing the early 90's may say more about you than him. Trust me, i saw plenty of crap and depressing shows in the 93-95 time period where JG health was a driving factor but the hit or miss nature of the band was part of the band's history and ethos.  Criticisms of the movie are well founded but of those among us that are dead and wilco heads, not so much. Peace.

[jff]

Anyone who would type that last sentence with its unfounded generalization and personal attack worthy of the alt right is in my book a close minded asshole, 

 

Even with your caveat, that's a dickheaded thing to say.  My comments about deadheads are based in my personal experiences knowing many of them and being one myself for a time.  I'm aware they're generalizations. If what I said doesn't apply to you, let it bounce off your armor and then move on.  I'm sure there's a Robert Hunter bible verse that applies to this exact scenario.

[jw harding]

Even with your caveat, that's a dickheaded thing to say.  My comments about deadheads are based in my personal experiences knowing many of them and being one myself for a time.  I'm aware they're generalizations. If what I said doesn't apply to you, let it bounce off your armor and then move on.  I'm sure there's a Robert Hunter bible verse that applies to this exact scenario.

Just let it bounce off and move on bro. "I guess it doesn't matter anyway..."

[Mr. Heartbreak]

Fellas, fellas. Everybody take a step back. You'll get this thread locked!

[calvino]

Silberman said he'd be able to relate to them because he deeply knows one aspect of their life.  I get what he thinks he's saying, but none of us can know how people, or even deadheads specifically, 500 years from now will view the Dead, or anything else, so he's just spouting nonsense for the sake of romanticizing his passion for being a deadhead.  Also, saying he can relate to a subculture in the distant future better than he can relate to people in general today...do you not see how that's a fraudulent comparison?  This is not "informed perspective", it's a guess, so don't hold me to a higher standard than you hold this guy, who I assume you think is an authority on the subject. 

 

But ignoring that, what else did I say that you think was not based in reality (reality, in the context of this discussion, being what is stated and shown in the film.)  Or are you just going to allow yourself to be hung up on one dumb Silberman quote and ignore everything else I said?

 

As an aside, the notion that there's some sort of litmus test or bar exam that must be passed before discussing the GD with you is probably the least GD-ish thing I've ever heard in my life.

 

Silberman is a smart cookie - maybe he figured out some Dead portal to the future...

 

Bar-Lev said that Silberman was one of  his best and most interesting interviews - he went to his place to talk to him for a bit and ended staying hours. 

A lot of it was left on the cutting room floor - not guessing you gonna search out the Easter Egg for the extra footage if the DVD is released...

 

Anyway I am with you jff --- don't really understand any of this hostility (perhaps too strong of a word)  --  the film had holes. Bar-Lev has said as much. 

[calvino]

Fellas, fellas. Everybody take a step back. You'll get this thread locked!

 

Oh - it's not that bad --- any way A-Man needs the 17 pages to think of new sub-topic-tag for eleventh Dead topic thread -- though it should be easy for eleven.

[Analogman]

Yea - we don't need to go back to the old fighting days.

[calvino]

In other news listening to 6/14/76, again. Such a great Music Never Stopped. Whole show is great -- with 6/15, it would make a great release. 

Both shows were in the recent Betty Board retrieval. 

[jff]

I apologize to everyone on this forum for antagonism on my part. This is a great place to discuss all sorts of things, and I don't want to upset that.

 

But I'm not backing away from anything I've said about this film, or about my experiences dealing with deadheads, or being a deadhead.

[Shug]

"I joined the 1972 tour of Europe to see Europe and to write songs (and because I always toured with the band) – endless European bus trips seemed like a God sent time to get the next album sketched out since Garcia was almost always otherwise occupied in the States - maybe a fourth album to follow the Workingman's Dead/American Beauty/Rambling Rose trilogy." Robert Hunter

 

 

Rambling Rose, the "lost" follow up studio album to American Beauty:  What songs would have been on it?

 

This post on Light Into Ashes' blog got me thinking about it, even though its not the main topic of the post

 http://deadessays.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-brotherhood-vs-dead-machine.html

 

This thread is linked in the replies: http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/compile-a-lost-grateful-dead-album-from-1971.324864/ 

 

This is what I came up with.  I decided to stick to only stuff that came out or was recorded in 1972 (don't hold me to absolute accuracy in that statement), so Bertha and Wharf Rat were out.  Europe '72 original LP is half-studio with so many overdubs so I chose versions from there when I could.  I decided stuff from Garcia and Ace were also fair game.  I could not quite decide if the Ace stuff should only be the Weir-Hunter songs or if I could include the Weir-Barlow songs.  I also tried to mostly stick to the anachronistic Americana vibe in my song selection although that wasn't possible if I wanted more than one or two Weir songs on there.  I kicked around several versions with different songs (some had Black Throated Wind and Bertha and Next Time You See Me) and sequencing, but this is what I am liking best this week:

 

Side A

Ramble On Rose - Europe '72

Mr. Charlie - Europe '72

Jack Straw - Europe '72

Brown Eyed Women - Europe '72

Playing In The Band - Ace

 

Side B

He's Gone - Europe '72

Chinatown Shuffle - Steppin' Out

Loser - 4/14/72 Copenhagen

Tennessee Jed - Europe '72

One More Saturday Night - Ace

Deal - Garcia

 

Care to come up with your own creation of Rambling Rose?

[calvino]

It would have been cool if they would have worked up "Two Souls in Communion" in the studio. 

[jw harding]

Between Europe 72, Skullfuck, and the various solo albums from that era, there's enough material for at least 3 classic albums. But all those albums are already classic in my book, even if they aren't Grateful Dead studio albums. 

 

Two Souls in Communion never did much for me. Maybe if they had polished it up, let Garcia sing it. Sorry Pig.

[mountain bed]

 

 

Lack of cooperation and access impacted Long Strange Trip 

That's an important thing to point out. I know from a conversation with Healy that he declined to be interviewed, as did others. I know that Dick Latvala's widow Carol (who herself was employed in the ticket office for a number of years) actually WAS interviewed but sadly that ended up on the cutting room floor. All I could say to her was, "I guess I'll wait for the director's cut!"

 

I'm not sure if Gans was interviewed - he's a busy guy on his own, touring constantly. I thought Silberman was great - #1 - he's a very engaging, loquacious guy, certainly, and secondly - he (and Gans, and especially with Rain Man Gary Lambert!) are a few of the most knowledgeable GD scholars we have and if they wanna talk Dead I'm all ears. Hey, I know some stuff, but these guys are on another level. 

In other news listening to 6/14/76, again. Such a great Music Never Stopped. Whole show is great -- with 6/15, it would make a great release. 

Both shows were in the recent Betty Board retrieval. 

I NEED those shows to be released - especially 6/14!