New Election Thread

[SeattleC]

This doesn't make sense to me. The man is accountable ("a part of the consequences") for creating the baby but has no say in whether or not it's brought to full term/birth? That's solely the woman's decision? That doesn't work for me.

 

 

Ideally it's a mutual agreement, and ideally the decision is to raise a happy healthy child in a loving partnership, but in a poke and dash situation, for example, clearly the woman should be able to make the final decision. McCain and Palin do not want that right to continue to exist, for either of the parties involved, whether it's a mutual decision or not.

[Lammycat]

Ideally it's a mutual agreement, and ideally the decision is to raise a happy healthy child in a loving partnership, but in a poke and dash situation, for example, clearly the woman should be able to make the final decision. McCain and Palin do not want that right to continue to exist.

All I'm suggesting is that it's a moot point. There's a lot of gray area there. When I here someone say it's simply a woman's decision I question that.

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

Hey everybody, it's kwall.

[bobbob1313]

Surprise of the election: michael Moore is still a fucking piece of shit.

[bjorn_skurj]

All I'm suggesting is that it's a moot point. There's a lot of gray area there. When I here someone say it's simply a woman's decision I question that.

Our choice as men is to wear a rubber, or settle for another method of reaching climax.

[kwall]

I hold at as a human right, beyond the U.S. Constitution.

 

we're in agreement there. it's beyond the u.s. constitution.

 

There are a lot of coercive situations, based mainly on economics and power, which put women in situations where they have children they don't want to have.

 

agreed. coerced pregnancy is wrong.

 

And what about the consequences to the inseminator? There are no natural things that happen to a man after he knocks up a woman. Man can get up from bed, put his pants back on - or not - walk outside, cross the street to get the mail and be hit by a bus.

 

agreed. it's not fair.

 

That baby is still coming.

 

agreed.

 

So, the final decision to have the baby should lie with the person whose birth it ultimately and irrevocably - the mother.

 

here's where we differ. killing the baby is not an option in my opinion.

 

but, in any case, we've agreed that this is not in the constitution, so i think that means that roe v. wade is not valid. you'll need to get an amendment for this.

[bjorn_skurj]

And we were so close!

[Lammycat]

Our choice as men is to wear a rubber, or settle for another method of reaching climax.

Birth control for a woman is also a choice. Not having sex is also a choice. When a man is expected to be a contributing partner (at the bare minimum financially and at the best emotionally and physically) in the raising of a baby he should also have a say in whether the fetus comes to full term or not. Claiming it's solely a woman's decision is not okay with me. Excluding one half of the equation (the male), after a mutual decision to have coitus, in the decision of whether or not the fetus is terminated is not only irresponsible but unjust.

[kwall]

yes, and i would add that the decision to take part in the act that leads to insemination is hardly the decision of one person in most cases.

 

most cases of sexual intercourse are rape? i'm going to need to see some support for this claim.

 

why is kwall taking into account only the woman's responsibility? the guy takes part in the decision and in the act. if he isn't a part of the consequences, there's a serious imbalance there that needs righting.

 

he is part of the consequences, whether he chooses to acknowledge it or not. i agree with you there. if he disappears, that's a serious imbalance, yes. i'm all for righting it.

 

so far there's only one way to right it -- the woman has the choice.

 

oh, by "righting" it, you meant killing the baby. sorry. does that mean the father should also have this "right"?

[SeattleC]

here's where we differ. killing the baby is not an option in my opinion.

 

I respect your opinion on that, but I think the anti-abortion crowd should leave those who don't agree with them alone, to live and die with the choices they made for themselves in their lives on this issue. There are very complicated situations out there, and some people don't think that aborting a fetus after a few months is the same as killing a baby. Reversing Row vs. Wade will be about as successful as Prohibition. People still drank; desperate very young women will still end up in desperate situations trying to have an abortion.

[sweetheart-mine]

most cases of sexual intercourse are rape? i'm going to need to see some support for this claim.

 

 

he is part of the consequences, whether he chooses to acknowledge it or not. i agree with you there. if he disappears, that's a serious imbalance, yes. i'm all for righting it.

 

 

oh, by "righting" it, you meant killing the baby. sorry. does that mean the father should also have this "right"?

uh, i made no such ridiculous claim. quite the opposite. read it again.

 

whether a fetus is a baby and whether "killling" is the honest term is something you and i will never agree on.

 

no, the father doesn't have this "right," because It's Not His Body that the "pro-lifers" want to control. "sorry." maybe you'll get that someday, i don't know.

[ChooChooCharlie]

Surprise of the election: michael Moore is still a fucking piece of shit.

See: Republican Anger Management . Couldn't find the link for a class near you, sorry man.

[kwall]

I respect your opinion on that, but I think the anti-abortion crowd should leave those who don't agree with them alone, to live and die with the choices they made for themselves in their lives on this issue.

 

i do leave them alone. i'm just talking here.

 

There are very complicated situations out there, and some people don't think that aborting a fetus after a few months is the same as killing a baby.

 

some people are wrong.

 

Reversing Row vs. Wade will be about as successful as Prohibition.

 

i don't have any predictions about "success". all i have to say about roe v. wade is that, in it, the court saw something in the constitution that isn't there and thereby, overnight, fabricated this "right". the legislature (ideally, the state legislatures) should address it.

 

desperate very young women will still end up in desperate situations trying to have an abortion.

 

desperate very young people will always exist and will be contemplating/doing dangerous, immoral things.

[ChooChooCharlie]

Why do all political debates have to end up at the dead end topic of abortion? Its one of many important issues and also the one issue 99.9% of people will never change their minds about -- especially during an emotional discussion on a music message board.

 

I miss the days (hours) of reading inappropriately sexist comments about Sarah Palin, and debating which of two inexperienced politicians have the least experience. Care-free, happier times, and gas only cost $4.10/gallon.

[sweetheart-mine]

Birth control for a woman is also a choice. Not having sex is also a choice. When a man is expected to be a contributing partner (at the bare minimum financially and at the best emotionally and physically) in the raising of a baby he should also have a say in whether the fetus comes to full term or not. Claiming it's solely a woman's decision is not okay with me. Excluding one half of the equation (the male), after a mutual decision to have coitus, in the decision of whether or not the fetus is terminated is not only irresponsible but unjust.

then get the scientists working to make males capable of conceiving, and carrying to term a pregnancy. (you forgot that little difference, i think.) oh, and also set the pregnant males up financially and in myriad other supportive ways in case they're stuck with a child they can't support if the woman runs off.

 

"birth control for a woman is also a choice." yes, although there's a big difference: every single birth control method for a woman is invasive, some more seriously than others. all a man has to do is pop on a condom.

[kwall]

uh, i made no such ridiculous claim. quite the opposite. read it again.

 

oh, i see. i'm sorry i misread you. you're right.

 

whether a fetus is a baby and whether "killling" is the honest term is something you and i will never agree on.

 

i'll hold out hope that someday you'll agree with me.

 

no, the father doesn't have this "right," because It's Not His Body that the "pro-lifers" want to control. "sorry." maybe you'll get that someday, i don't know.

 

i was being facetious about the father's "right".

 

the pro-lifers don't want to control anyone's body. they want to save babies' lives. they believe there are two bodies in a pregnant woman. i could just as easily make the argument that the pro-choicers want to control the child's body, by doing away with it.

[sweetheart-mine]

Why do all political debates have to end up at the dead end topic of abortion? Its one of many important issues and also the one issue 99.9% of people will never change their minds about -- especially during an emotional discussion on a music message board.

 

I miss the days (hours) of reading inappropriately sexist comments about Sarah Palin, and debating which of two inexperienced politicians have the least experience. Care-free, happier times, and gas only cost $4.10/gallon.

i hear you, but it's mccain's fault for picking an anti-abortionist female as his running mate. don't worry, it'll die down soon. i for one have only about 6 things to say about it, and they seem to be over with.

[SeattleC]

desperate very young people will always exist and will be contemplating/doing dangerous, immoral things.

 

 

If you don't want one, don't have one, and if you don't want to listen to Wilco, don't, as I always tell my father-in-law, who at 70+ is hip and a helleva skier, but who hates Wilco .

[ChooChooCharlie]

"birth control for a woman is also a choice." yes, although there's a big difference: every single birth control method for a woman is invasive, some more seriously than others. all a man has to do is pop on a condom.

As a penis-carrying member of the male gender, I can't think of anything more invasive than wearing a condom ...........(except maybe mood swings, weight gain........oh, and carrying a baby in your body).

i hear you, but it's mccain's fault for picking an anti-abortionist female as his running mate. don't worry, it'll die down soon. i for one have only about 6 things to say about it, and they seem to be over with.

fair enough. i'm cool with blaming the old man.

[kwall]

If you don't want one, don't have one, and if you don't want to listen to Wilco, don't, as I always tell my father-in-law, who at 70+ is hip and a helleva skier, but who hates Wilco .

 

 

hating wilco is unconstitutional.

[sweetheart-mine]

i'll hold out hope that someday you'll agree with me.

well, i wouldn't recommend that, because i've had quite a few decades to think about this and have never changed my mind about it. really, don't hold your breath.

 

you and i will never agree, and neither will the rest of our fast-growing population. that is exactly why this very personal choice should be up to the individual and not legislated by any level or branch of government, period.

 

thank you, and goodnight.

[sweetheart-mine]

As a penis-carrying member of the male gender, I can't think of anything more invasive than wearing a condom ...........(except maybe mood swings, weight gain........oh, and carrying a baby in your body).

yah, i know, not the most fun! but bless your thinking heart!

[kwall]

... this very personal choice should be up to the individual and not legislated by any level or branch of government, period.

 

legislated doesn't necessarily mean outlawed. it may mean legalized. it's the legislature's job to decide what is legal and what isn't.

 

currently, it has been "legislated" by the judicial branch of government. so i guess we agree there. it shouldn't be.

[lost highway]

Yeah, the abortion thing. In the end it's a highly personal issue that some sleazy right wing candidates trump to convince less astute voters (who should be perusing a list of more important and effective political stances) to vote for their sorry asses. Bush cried on about overturning Roe V. Wade all the way to the church and every dumb ass who reads the bible as science voted for him. He luckily was unable to ruin a woman's right to choose and all the yokels that based their vote on it didn't read the fine print of his first DISASTROUS FOUR YEARS IN THE WHITE HOUSE! Opinions on abortion are naturally diverse and charged. The only conclusion is interfering with choice would be putting the government in a position that is an inherently dictatorial violation of civil liberties, and therefore un-American. This could go on, I could too, but it would distract us from all those other important matters that get glossed over when people get charged up on abortion politics.

 

Meanwhile, what does everyone make of Barack's stance on immigration? That was the one part of his speech that struck me as non-committal if not complete waffling.

[sweetheart-mine]

l

QUOTE (sweetheart-mine @ Aug 30 2008, 04:43 PM) *

... this very personal choice should be up to the individual and not XXXXXXX decided and enforced, made illegal, or otherwise influenced by any level or branch of government, period.

now i have a ballgame to watch. it starts in two minutes.