New Election Thread

[ShuckOwens]

Bush gutted FEMA, placed a patronage person at it's head and failed to fund shoring up and rebuilding the levies. He sent the Reservists to Iraq so that they had to move military from the Northeast over days rather than having sufficient numbers on hand.

 

To show his concern, they touchingly filmed Bush looking out his airplane window at the devastation -- from thousands of feet above it all.

 

The Republicans didn't cause Katrina. But the Bush administration royally screwed up in its aftermath.

 

This is bias, but the fact that New Orleans is democratic based likely added to the weak and uncoordinated response. Bush would have been more vigilant in his efforts if it happened in, say, Florida.

I'm not saying that Bush did not fail as well, but Nagin and Blanco certainly were not shining stars during that disaster. There was a lot of (what should have been) local assistance in terms of equipment and supplies that were not mobilized.

[Central Scrutinizer]

I think it's good to be a little cynical, but only when that cynicism reflects reality and doesn't dictate what your reality is. I'm pretty cynical about the two party system myself, and Obama is lacking in a couple areas so he's not my ideal candidate, but it's a falsehood that the parties are always exactly as right and as wrong as each other, and it's a falsehood that both parties are always exactly as responsible and exactly as corrupt as one another, and it's a falsehood that their differences on policy are always too minor to be significant. Sometimes it's true, but this time it isn't. Sometimes too much cynicism leads to the worse of two evils being elected because people thought that they were too wise about the system to bother learning anything about the candidates or the issues.

Each person, regardless of party, race, creed (yada, yada, yada) is driven and motivated by the exact same things. Each person acts based on the content of their character and their ability to rise above those who attempt to mold or shape, or rise to a position to mold and shape, our culture. Each person is susceptible to emotion, passion and temptations. b2 is reacting to the election as he does -- and perhaps it's a good thing because he is approaching from outside of the constraints and compromises of the two-party system we find ourselves in -- where you compromise what you believe with those things you don't believe, to hope to achieve the proper mix. Eventually, as a society we have to do that, but not voting is a form of civil disobedience, which is a political act.

[Central Scrutinizer]

I'm not saying that Bush did not fail as well, but Nagin and Blanco certainly were not shining stars during that disaster. There was a lot of (what should have been) local assistance in terms of equipment and supplies that were not mobilized.

True, as well as the fine local congressman, Sen. William J. Jefferson.

 

However federal response trumps all in a national disaster. When the state declares a disaster that surrenders control to the federal government and FEMA. The buck stopped (or dropped) there.

[ShuckOwens]

Looks like Drudge is hinting at Alaskan governor Sarah Palin getting the nod as McCain's veep.

I know that she will be regarded as an "unknown", or surprise pick, but Palin is highly regarded among many Republicans, and is fairly popular in Alaska.

[Hixter]

However federal response trumps all in a national disaster. When the state declares a disaster that surrenders control to the federal government and FEMA. The buck stopped (or dropped) there.

 

Responsibilities during a natural disaster work from the bottom up:

 

1) The individual. Evacuate, and do it early. Don't wait for someone to make the decision for you. If you foolishly decide to stick around, prepare to be completely self-sufficient for at least 3-7 days.

 

2) Local government. Immediately responsible for its area in the 24 hours or so before and after the disaster. Nagin made a lot of costly mistakes.

 

3) State government. Once the disaster has passed, the state moves its National Guard troops and emergency apparatus to the affected area within the first day or two. Blanco screwed up in a big way with the National Guard.

 

4) Federal government. The feds' response comes in days, not hours, and only at the behest of the state. Brown was a lousy head of FEMA and lost his job because of it.

 

There were failures at all 4 levels. The severity of the failures decreases with distance from the disaster, while the difficulty and timeliness of the response increases with distance.

[Central Scrutinizer]

Responsibilities during a natural disaster work from the bottom up:

 

1) The individual. Evacuate, and do it early. Don't wait for someone to make the decision for you. If you foolishly decide to stick around, prepare to be completely self-sufficient for at least 3-7 days.

 

2) Local government. Immediately responsible for its area in the 24 hours or so before and after the disaster. Nagin made a lot of costly mistakes.

 

3) State government. Once the disaster has passed, the state moves its National Guard troops and emergency apparatus to the affected area within the first day or two. Blanco screwed up in a big way with the National Guard.

 

4) Federal government. The feds' response comes in days, not hours, and only at the behest of the state. Brown was a lousy head of FEMA and lost his job because of it.

 

There were failures at all 4 levels. The severity of the failures decreases with distance from the disaster, while the difficulty and timeliness of the response increases with distance.

I have served on disaster management boards. This is a bit out of order. It's actually 1) local government, plan of evacuation, protection of citizens 2) individual -- follow plan, get the butt out. 3) federal government is first into the scene, determines level and type of problems. Coordinates downard through FEMA with Red Cross, disaster response, state and local government. City nor state is allowed on the scene until fed says it's o.k. to do so.

[caliber66]

"I will rebuild our military to meet future conflicts."

That will be necessary whether or not he intends to start future wars.

[LouieB]

I know that she will be regarded as an "unknown", or surprise pick, but Palin is highly regarded among many Republicans, and is fairly popular in Alaska.

Yea and the Republicans are gonna need Alaska to win this election...

 

I guess McCain thinks that having a woman on the ticket will be the deciding factor in getting the Hillary vote, maybe. Let's see how many are fooled by that....(or maybe it the Monty Python fans who think she is related to Michael.)

 

LouieB

[Lammycat]

"I will rebuild our military to meet future conflicts."

I was responding to a post saying more people will be killed if Obama is in office, and only meant to point out that no matter who takes office there will continue to be wars....

 

 

ed. I can understand how B2 feels as that's been my general outlook for my entire voting life. I didn't vote in the last election because the line was too long, too.

[caliber66]

(or maybe it the Monty Python fans who think she is related to Michael.)

How do you know she isn't?

[Central Scrutinizer]

That will be necessary whether or not he intends to start future wars.

Echoing a pragmatic point -- not ensuring a "war free" president, which was the point being made.

 

How do you know she isn't?

"Sorry guv'nor, we're fresh out of oil ..."

[Hixter]

I have served on disaster management boards. This is a bit out of order. It's actually 1) local government, plan of evacuation, protection of citizens 2) individual -- follow plan, get the butt out. 3) federal government is first into the scene, determines level and type of problems. Coordinates downard through FEMA with Red Cross, disaster response, state and local government. City nor state is allowed on the scene until fed says it's o.k. to do so.

 

That doesn't scale very well in anything but the hugest of disasters, as the Feds aren't even involved much of the time.

 

The individual is still the first in the chain of responsibility. There's no way you could evacuate a major city if everyone waited for the official order. I've spent most of my life in hurricane-prone areas and it's always been beaten into our heads to evacuate early, stockpile supplies if you don't plan to evacuate and don't plan on any outside assistance for at least 72 hours.

[caliber66]

That doesn't scale very well in anything but the hugest of disasters, as the Feds aren't even involved much of the time.

How would you classify Katrina?

[ikol]

Yea and the Republicans are gonna need Alaska to win this election...

 

I guess McCain thinks that having a woman on the ticket will be the deciding factor in getting the Hillary vote, maybe. Let's see how many are fooled by that....(or maybe it the Monty Python fans who think she is related to Michael.)

 

LouieB

 

She's not Romney, for which we can all be thankful.

[Hixter]

How would you classify Katrina?

 

As a huge disaster in which the feds did become involved. But it's ridiculous to put the federal government in front of the city and state government when it comes to early response. In fact there was quite a bit of tension early on as the governor refused to federalize the National Guard troops because she didn't want to lose her grip on the relief effort.

[Sir Stewart]

She's not Romney, for which we can all be thankful.

Speak for yourself!

[Central Scrutinizer]

As a huge disaster in which the feds did become involved. But it's ridiculous to put the federal government in front of the city and state government when it comes to early response. In fact there was quite a bit of tension early on as the governor refused to federalize the National Guard troops because she didn't want to lose her grip on the relief effort.

There is protocol, regardless of the disaster -- and regardless of coastal hurricanes or other types. Same ressponse from a Category 1 hurricane. The disaster area is evacuated and the federal government takes over. The transition to local and state is coordinated and -- when it works -- is usually seamless.

 

I tell you the truth, in some cases rescue and relief agencies, such as the United Methodist Committee on Relief, have as much of a role initially in efforts as local and state officials.

 

At the end of the day we are all individually responsible. Does that mean Katrina was my fault?

[Hixter]

At the end of the day we are all individually responsible. Does that mean Katrina was my fault?

 

No. It means that there would have been ZERO deaths in New Orleans if everyone had used their heads and left the city.

[Central Scrutinizer]

No. It means that there would have been ZERO deaths in New Orleans if everyone had used their heads and left the city.

It was 3 years ago, but IIRC, it was the flooding after the levees failed that caused more of the deaths and maladies. in some cases after the all clear was given to return.

 

Many of the post disaster concerns center on questions of equitable and adequate relief efforts, upon returning.

[Hixter]

It was 3 years ago, but IIRC, it was the flooding after the levees failed that caused more of the deaths and maladies. in some cases after the all clear was given to return.

 

The flooding began almost immediately and was responsible for most of the deaths. If anyone gave an all-clear to return to a flooded area he/she was a complete idiot.

[IRememberDBoon]

what difference does it make why someone stayed when their house is filled with water and they are 80 years old on the roof???

 

Hixter wants to yell out of the helicopter "HEY DUMBASS YOU SHOULD HAVE LEFT!!"

 

[ShuckOwens]

No. It means that there would have been ZERO deaths in New Orleans if everyone had used their heads and left the city.

This rings true for able-bodied people in harm's way. It is worth noting that there were people who were physically or mentally unable to make this evacuation on their own.

[lost highway]

I'm not sure how that demonizes you. The right to not exercise your right to vote is just as powerful. Besides, a "nonvote" in 2004 was the only logical choice to make then.

 

That makes the last four years of awfulness .00001% your fault. Thankyou for helping.

[Spawn's dad]

what's the page over/under on the closure of this thread?

[Gobias Industries]

How do you know she isn't?

 

"I didn't expect some sort of Democratic Party!"