Election Year!!!

[kwall]

Which is in spite of your irony precisely the point. Because of our incredible need we are literally over a barrel with our asses in the air.

well then yes, by all means, we shouldn't be looking to get more. that would be stupid.

[M. (hristine]

well then yes, by all means, we shouldn't be looking to get more. that would be stupid.

You're obfuscating.

[viatroy]

The election theft issue is the elephant in the room. I don't hear the Dems talking about it, though the shenanigans in FL 2000 and OH/NM/etc 2004 are thoroughly documented. They are poised to do it again on a larger scale. I hope Obama refuses to concede (if it comes to that) until every vote is accounted for. If you think there is no proof of this, you're not interested in it because it favors your team or you just don't give a damn.

 

 

lots of good info out there. Try Greg Palast, RFK, etc.

 

American Blackout

Black Box Voting

Free for All -- this one's a movie online that scrutinizes the Ohio dirty tricks

 

www.2004electiontheft.com -- lots of links to info

[ChooChooCharlie]

Halliburton was profiteering and therein lies the difference.

well played.

I mean, I've seen some stuff. It's all mostly allegations, nobody's ever concretely proven that they 'stole' the election. You also didn't mention 2004, which you said they stole as well.

Just like no one has concretely proven evolution. But there are some pretty solid "allegations" that its goin down.

 

And I never said they stole 2004. Check the thread. Someone else said that. I do think there was voter suppression and corruption in Ohio in 2004, but I'm not positive that election was fraudulently obtained. I think people broke the law to get Bush elected, but he may have been elected anyway -- from what I've read, its a close call.

[Good Old Neon]

Which is in spite of your irony precisely the point. Because of our incredible need we are literally over a barrel with our asses in the air. History has shown that special friends of Republicans have their fists greased and ready to give it a go.

 

 

well then yes, by all means, we shouldn't be looking to get more. that would be stupid.

 

- Oh, and that's not beer in that glass, it's oil, and we're hopelessly addicted to it - and, if we were not so dependant on it, the oil companies wouldn't get away with a quarter of the shit they do. And one day soon, that glass is going to be empty - and that, I'm afraid, will be much more than stupid.

[ChooChooCharlie]

well then yes, by all means, we shouldn't be looking to get more. that would be stupid.

at the expense of developing alternative fuel sources -- yes, that would be stupid. Even conservative estimates of drilling for more oil indicate we won't get it for a decade and it will account for a fraction of our need. Very, very stupid -- at least as the bulk of the plan.

 

The election theft issue is the elephant in the room. If you think there is no proof of this, you're not interested in it because it favors your team or you just don't give a damn.

nailed it.

[bobbob1313]

They are poised to do it again on a larger scale.

 

[kwall]

at the expense of developing alternative fuel sources -- yes, that would be stupid.

agreed.

[embiggen]

 

 

you're really kwall, aren't you.

[Spawn's dad]

 

is that bjorn?

[viatroy]

fuck.

 

 

Considering you've announced yourself ignorant of election fraud as an issue, I'll take that for what it's worth.

[tugmoose]

The election theft issue is the elephant in the room. I don't hear the Dems talking about it, though the shenanigans in FL 2000 and OH/NM/etc 2004 are thoroughly documented. They are poised to do it again on a larger scale. I hope Obama refuses to concede (if it comes to that) until every vote is accounted for. If you think there is no proof of this, you're not interested in it because it favors your team or you just don't give a damn.

 

 

lots of good info out there. Try Greg Palast, RFK, etc.

 

American Blackout

Black Box Voting

Free for All -- this one's a movie online that scrutinizes the Ohio dirty tricks

 

www.2004electiontheft.com -- lots of links to info

Dems don't wanna talk about it because it makes them look like The Victim, the little kid whose lunch money's been stolen.

[Good Old Neon]

 

When did Rove grow a beard and start wearing hats?

[bobbob1313]

is that bjorn?

 

I kind of feel like it looks like him and Caliber's 55 year old love child.

[viatroy]

I dunno, something's shady about that.

[Wendy]

it looks like Thax Douglas to me.

[sweetheart-mine]

it looks like one of those guys in "fargo," which scares me.

[Guest Jules]

What disturbs me about the energy thing is the new ad by the oil industry. It says there is enough untapped oil in the US to run 60 million cars for 60 years. These are the oil industry's numbers. When you factor in that there are about 3-4 times that many registered vehicles in the US, you're looking at about 20-30 years worth of oil. Considering that pretty much our whole economy is petroleum based, that's not a heck of a long time before we're tapped out.

good thing by then I'll be retired and living on the beach with servants who can walk to the store.

[bobbob1313]

fuck.

 

 

Considering you've announced yourself ignorant of election fraud as an issue, I'll take that for what it's worth.

 

I'm reading the link you posted and, quite frankly, it all seems like conspiracy theories to me. No concrete evidence, and if you're going to make allegations like that, the burden of proof is on you.

 

I put this in the same boat with the 9/11 truthers. We're supposed to believe at the same time that Bush is one of the worst, most incompetent presidents of all time (I probably think this is true), but that he can also orchestrate these 3 huge evil plots.

 

Looking at the breakdown of the 2004 election by party support, it's pretty easy to see that the republicans just did a better job of convincing the base. The Democrats put up an awful candidate, Bush didn't need to steal anything.

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

Evidence of voter suppression:

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20040817140125/...ics/8765193.htm

 

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/...00_felons2.html

[bjorn_skurj]

is that bjorn?

Ha! I was thinking about using that on my Facebook profile.

[Mrs. Peel]

it looks like Thax Douglas to me.

 

[John Smith]

Do people actually take Olbermann seriously? He's the left's version of Bill O'Reilly, except he's probably a little more condescending (a little more intelligent, sure, but condescending as hell.)

 

Sure Olberman can be condescending very much so, but he speaks well, he is a verbal visual manifestation of the anger seething through this country right now. It's out there more than people realize. But Olberman will at least research and reference his talks with facts, and not make up shit like the worst person in the world life time achievement award winner BO.

 

what's wrong with american companies making profits?

 

 

it's $105 and plummeting. at least in part thanks to all the talk about our potential to increase the supply.

 

There is nothing wrong with American companies, or any companies for that matter, making profits honestly. But wen Halliburton 1) gets no bid contracts on a cost + basis from our government menaing you and me the taxpayer paying for it, and then 2) turn around and provide our troops with crappy food water facilities etc... and overcharge our government for so much, I have a problem.

 

As tot he "stolen election" issue. From what I have read it would appear that 204 looks more stolen than 2000. In 2000 we had a states right supreme court remove a right specifically granted to the states by the constitution (the right to choose their elector) and they tell Florida your laws are not working therefore we have to intercede. that may or may not be classified as stolen. That is a mtter of how you view the decision, which in it's activist manner flew in the face of everything Scalia, Rhenquist, and Scalia Junior have claimed to stand for.

 

However with 2004 the FEC did a report on the election and found huge irrgularities in Ohio from lack of voter machines in places like Cleveland and voter suppression campaigns in places like Cleveland, to counties in Western Ohio recording more votes than registered voters and tested machines having thousands of votes already pre-programmed onto them. Yes there were problems and they were documented.

 

Can eaither of these situations be changed? No but they can be learned from, just asthe last eight years can be used as a giant what not to do model for running an effective democracy.

[ChooChooCharlie]

I'm reading the link you posted and, quite frankly, it all seems like conspiracy theories to me. No concrete evidence, and if you're going to make allegations like that, the burden of proof is on you.

 

I put this in the same boat with the 9/11 truthers.

That's convenient. You were 12 and 16 respectively during the elections we're debating, so unless you were an unusually sophisticated pre-teen and teen, you probably didn't gain much first-hand knowledge about whether these elections were stolen or not. Then you don't educate yourself about them ("I've heard some stuff"). Then you get provided with links, and an explanation to your questions on this board and you ignore them. Then you lump the truth you wish was false with a radical theory about 9/11 in a lame attempt to discredit it. Your credibility is not at an all-time high Bob.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

Evidence of voter suppression:

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20040817140125/...ics/8765193.htm

 

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/...00_felons2.html

 

 

LOL

 

Evidence of some grand conspiracy? Hardly. Local and State Governments are notoriously slow and (should I dare say) incompetent. Some high school graduate clerk was told to add them back and they havne't gotten to it.

 

Governments at the State and Local level aren't organized enough to engage in organized conspiracies.