Brand Spanking New Election Thread

[jc4prez]

I gave you the names of scholars that have devoted their careers to this topic. It's a simple fact that our system can't support more than two dominant parties. If you're interested in knowing why this is true, read up on it. Like I said, I can't remember the ins and outs of the argument, but non-coalition systems (like ours) cannot support a major multi-party system.

 

***

 

I disagree that it is the 'duty' of citizens to do more than vote. The Constitutional bare-minimum option (optional! not mandatory) for government participation is voting, and I personally hold that as my bare-minimum to have a conversation with people about politics (that is: you don't vote, I don't listen to your complaints). However, I do believe personally that it is beneficial (to person and community) for citizens to do more than vote; I prefer to participate in my community on a neighborhood/local level, but I don't really care what you do to participate.

 

That being said, I would never agree that someone who participates by doing more than voting should have a greater say in a discussion than someone who only votes. Again, that is a personal preference.

 

I agree, I wasn't saying constitutionally.

 

As for the third party thing, i'll have to look into those authors, but i'm calling bullshit.

[Guest Speed Racer]

Telling someone that they should shut their mouth if they don't vote for one of two people is democracy? Come on.

 

But I didn't say that at all. I suggested other means of expression equal to the power and time-commitment of one vote.

 

It is all about choices - and if you choose silence on the first Tuesday of November, you're setting yourself up to lose. Will wishing ever make the system change?

 

I had a roommate who always used to look at the garbage can when it was full and say, "[sigh...] Someone should empty that," and go back to what she was doing. EMPTY THE FLIPPIN' CAN! To me, not doing something on election day is the same thing.

[Lammycat]

But I didn't say that at all. I suggested other means of expression equal to the power and time-commitment of one vote.

 

It is all about choices - and if you choose silence on the first Tuesday of November, you're setting yourself up to lose. Will wishing ever make the system change?

 

I had a roommate who always used to look at the garbage can when it was full and say, "[sigh...] Someone should empty that," and go back to what she was doing. EMPTY THE FLIPPIN' CAN! To me, not doing something on election day is the same thing.

I hear you, speedracer. And I agree with you to an extent. Emptying the garbage can only makes more room for more garbage, though.

[Guest Speed Racer]

As for the third party thing, i'll have to look into those authors, but i'm calling bullshit.

 

Here. Only using Wikipedia for that because Lijphart is cited. A municipal library probably won't carry his work, but you can try cc or university libraries. Amazon listing for Lijphart. I'm really not trying to give you the run-around. You can even use your own knowledge of American history - there's no instance where three parties maintained a reasonably competitive balance of power.

[jc4prez]

I hear you, speedracer. And I agree with you to an extent. Emptying the garbage can only makes more room for more garbage, though.

 

 

Do you believe its impossible to have elected officials that follow the will of the people?

[Guest Speed Racer]

I hear you, speedracer. And I agree with you to an extent. Emptying the garbage can only makes more room for more garbage, though.

 

Okay, I really have no desire to draw this garbage metaphor out (my anecdote, and I know you know this, was to illustrate the action/complaint 'schema'), but we threw a lot of shit out for a long time before we started recycling programs. And while they're not perfect, we throw out a lot less shit than we used to. Progress is possible, but rarely miraculous.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I hear you, speedracer. And I agree with you to an extent. Emptying the garbage can only makes more room for more garbage, though.

 

Okay, I really have no desire to draw out this garbage metaphor (my anecdote, and I know you know this, was to illustrate the action/complaint 'schema'), but we threw a lot of shit out for a long time before we started recycling programs. And while they're not perfect, we throw out a lot less shit than we used to. Progress is possible, but rarely miraculous.

[Sir Stewart]

Don't worry about that bullshit - just do what you do.

 

[bobbob1313]

 

I think it's a bit, at this point.

[Doug C]

I apologize if I sounded as though I was trashing the entire thread and the posters. I wasn't. I enjoy reading the election threads mainly for worthwhile links and an occasional chuckle. All I meant to say was that from reading the political threads I often feel as though some people seem to say things more to get a reaction than to promote their view. I again apologize. From some responses, it is quite obvious that folks thought that I was calling everyone an arsehole. For that I am sincerely sorry.

[jc4prez]

. All I meant to say was that from reading the political threads I often feel as though some people seem to say things more to get a reaction than to promote their view.

 

 

I think your spot on. When people are confronted with information different then their own they usually back off or ignore the post.

[Tweedling]

I apologize if I sounded as though I was trashing the entire thread and the posters. I wasn't. I enjoy reading the election threads mainly for worthwhile links and an occasional chuckle. All I meant to say was that from reading the political threads I often feel as though some people seem to say things more to get a reaction than to promote their view. I again apologize. From some responses, it is quite obvious that folks thought that I was calling everyone an arsehole. For that I am sincerely sorry.

I don't think you owe anyone an apology. It was a good observation and your opinion. Maybe it hit close to home for some of the people who got "butt-hurt".

[Analogman]

I think it's a bit, at this point.

 

No - I am not doing bits, gags, jokes, or whatever you want to call it. As I said the other day - we do fairly well with our back and forth until certain people decide to start jabbing.

 

So why don't we quit calling each other smug dicks, stinky dildos, mother fuckers, cock suckers, and quit making comments about people in and outside of a threads, etc.

[Party @ the Moontower]

Telling someone that they should shut their mouth if they don't vote for one of two people is democracy? Come on.

 

 

If you choose not to vote for anything, even your state and local elections for no good reasons other than you just don't feel like anyone in government is worth a damn, then get out & work for the change you believe in. I personally never said they must shut-up, I agreed with Speed Racer that they should be the change they wish to see, not just run on "my non-vote is a vote BS".

 

Working for change can be as simple as the choices you make everyday. We chose solar power for our home instead of gas. Simple. We raised organic chickens instead of buying factory farmed ones. Simple. I buy used vehicles that last instead of over priced gas hogs. Simple.

 

I also vote, and I am supporting Obama for a variety of reasons. To say I refuse to vote for either because they are the same, is a silly argument. McCain & Obama are worlds apart. To not vote is a right you have, but it's a wasted right period.

[jenbobblehead]

I'm the one who said that if you won't work to make change (by voting) then stfu. I do not want to hear any whining about how things aren't going someone's way if they don't take the time to vote, or get involved. I don't have the patience. I know that makes me obnoxious, but so be it. I roll my eyes at your general direction. I'm 42 years old, and I live in a basement. I am quickly becoming the person I made fun of 20 years ago.

[bjorn_skurj]

Honestly, I doubt many politicians stay up at night worrying about the people who don't vote. Standard GOP theory is that since they are the minority party in terms of enrollment, the fewer people who vote, the better it is for them.

[Party @ the Moontower]

I'm the one who said that if you won't work to make change (by voting) then stfu. I do not want to hear any whining about how things aren't going someone's way if they don't take the time to vote, or get involved. I don't have the patience. I know that makes me obnoxious, but so be it. I roll my eyes at your general direction. I'm 42 years old, and I live in a basement. I am quickly becoming the person I made fun of 20 years ago.

 

I agree, although I was blamed for your comment because I agreed. But still, I agree.

[jenbobblehead]

Honestly, I doubt many politicians stay up at night worrying about the people who don't vote. Standard GOP theory is that since they are the minority party in terms of enrollment, the fewer people who vote, the better it is for them.

EXACTLY!

 

Not voting is the same as voting for republicans.

[Party @ the Moontower]

I apologize if I sounded as though I was trashing the entire thread and the posters. I wasn't. I enjoy reading the election threads mainly for worthwhile links and an occasional chuckle. All I meant to say was that from reading the political threads I often feel as though some people seem to say things more to get a reaction than to promote their view. I again apologize. From some responses, it is quite obvious that folks thought that I was calling everyone an arsehole. For that I am sincerely sorry.

 

I feel the same way about some people doing this, but not the majority. You shouldn't have to say your sorry though . What I do like about this board is all the different views. If it were any different, without some silliness and trouble makers, than it would be very boring.

[mountain bed]

A wise old (now dead) man once said, "Politics is the art of controlling your environment", and I choose to believe it is so. If you live in this country you (with very very few exceptions) are subject to the legislation of elected officials. So - if you want to live your life in the manner you wish it only makes sense to seek out people running for office that closely share your views. They are 'representatives' after all. Sometimes you get a representative that could not be farther from your views about the world. That's when you work to get those people booted out of office.

 

I know that I would sleep better at night if my efforts to educate people about Mister Mike Fucking Pence results in that bastard losing his seat in Congress. You can substitute any name you wish in there - yeah, I'm talking to YOU Steve King of Iowa, Phil Gingrey in Georgia, Ted ("that's just the way it is") Poe down in the heart of Texas, etc etc..

[Party @ the Moontower]

OMG, it's hot not to vote! Thanking my lucky stars not everyone votes...

[Lammycat]

OMG, it's hot not to vote! Thanking my lucky stars not everyone votes...

You miss the entire point.

 

I'm not saying it's "cool" not to vote. Eh. I guess anyone who doesn't vote loses his/her constitutional rights to voice opinions. I agree that you should vote for what your heart tells you to, for whom aligns with your voice personally. My question: what if your heart tells you "no one?" Accordingly, you should still vote!!!

[Party @ the Moontower]

You miss the entire point.

 

I'm not saying it's "cool" not to vote. Eh. I guess anyone who doesn't vote loses his/her constitutional rights to voice opinions. I agree that you should vote for what your heart tells you to, for whom aligns with your voice personally. My question: what if your heart tells you "no one?" Accordingly, you should still vote!!!

 

My only point of that post was to make fun of Paris for being a voice during Rock the Vote times, only to not vote. Other than that, you should not vote with your heart. Vote with your educated mind. Second, vote for the country's ( or town, state) best interest, not just your own.

 

I realy can't believe with so many votes to cast among state, local, and national elections, there isn't one person a non-voter will vote for. No one is good enough?

[Guest Speed Racer]

My question: what if your heart tells you "no one?" Accordingly, you should still vote!!!

 

Run for office yourself? Find someone else to write-in? Is there absolutely no one on god's green earth (or, at least, an American-born, non-felon, citizen over the age of 36) worth voting for? Someone who doesn't vote and doesn't seek an alternative to the arrangement and still feels compelled to complain is a curmudgeon. Someone who doesn't vote, thinks the world spins fine without his or her input, and doesn't complain about the jackass in office is okay in my book.

 

People who wait around for an awesome candidate to pop up out of the ether confound me (and that isn't to say that you, Lammycat, are one of those people). If revolution comes, it's not going to be on a ballot. Any change that happens through elections is going to happen gradually, but it isn't going to happen if the people that want it don't seek it. Also, it likely won't happen to a dramatic or even noticeable extent throughout a single generation. But that doesn't mean it won't happen, and that doesn't mean there's nothing you can do.

 

I realy can't believe with so many votes to cast among state, local, and national elections, there isn't one person a non-voter will vote for. No one is good enough?

 

Oh for heaven's sake. If I read correctly, Lammycat wasn't talking about not showing up to vote, but rather not voting for specific offices.

[embiggen]

My question: what if your heart tells you "no one?" Accordingly, you should still vote!!!

 

yes.