The Grateful Dead

[Lammycat]

Always liked how they did Iko out of Space. There's a really nice one from UVA '83. Doesn't have the cool Donna/Bob vocal fills that the late 70s ones have, but it's a nice slow and funky one....

[Skian]

Still looking for a good 83'.

Try Berkeley Greek 5/14/83 -

Great 2nd set!

Shakedown. Playin->China Doll->Playin->Bob Jam* ->Drums->Wheel->Playin->AM Dew-> Sugar Mag. E) Sat Night.

* Bob lingers on stage for a while and shows us why he was voted best Rhythm Guitarist from BAM Magazine that year or there aboot.

There are some good quality Aud recordings out there maybe the Archives have some?

Worth seeking out!

[worldrecordplayer]

Well yes and no.  In Boston, they did Estimated, and then Eyes.  There is no > there.  Over a minute and a half of break between songs.  So it may be the first pairing with the "gazinta"

 

https://archive.org/details/gd77-05-07.rolfe.weiner.6021.sbeok.shnf

 

Could it have been the first instance of the pairing of Bertha>Good Loving?  I'll have to check the book in the May '77 box when I get home.

I checked the book in the May '77 box, this St. Louis show was the first time Estimated and Eyes were joined, the first of many. And not only was Passenger a first time played, it was previously unheard by everyone in the Arena as had not yet been released.

[Magnetized]

I have a question for you Deadheads. (Your obsessiveness constantly astounds me, by the way. And I should talk!)

 

A friend and I were talking about an upcoming festival that I was thinking she'd be particularly interested in since she was a big Grateful Dead fan for several years running. I mentioned Bob Weir and Ratdog were playing as well as Phil Lesh. The prospect left her cold. She's never felt particularly interested in anyone in the band after Jerry died. Her point was that the Grateful Dead without Jerry was akin to Wilco without Jeff Tweedy.

 

So is there a good sized contingent of fans who feel that strongly about the centrality of Jerry Garcia to the Grateful Dead? Like, for sure there is no possibility of a Wilco without Jeff Tweedy, I think it was possible to conceive of a Grateful Dead without Jerry Garcia. Or maybe it's just two points along a continuum.

 

Discuss. Seriously, if anyone's interested in this question.

[worldrecordplayer]

I have a question for you Deadheads. (Your obsessiveness constantly astounds me, by the way. And I should talk!)

 

A friend and I were talking about an upcoming festival that I was thinking she'd be particularly interested in since she was a big Grateful Dead fan for several years running. I mentioned Bob Weir and Ratdog were playing as well as Phil Lesh. The prospect left her cold. She's never felt particularly interested in anyone in the band after Jerry died. Her point was that the Grateful Dead without Jerry was akin to Wilco without Jeff Tweedy.

 

So is there a good sized contingent of fans who feel that strongly about the centrality of Jerry Garcia to the Grateful Dead? Like, for sure there is no possibility of a Wilco without Jeff Tweedy, I think it was possible to conceive of a Grateful Dead without Jerry Garcia. Or maybe it's just two points along a continuum.

 

Discuss. Seriously, if anyone's interested in this question.

That's a substantial question, it's late at night so I can only be brief now. Yes, there are some who feel the way your friend does, but many fans of the band and Jerry, myself included, are fans of Grateful Dead music, the songs. That music has lived on in various incarnations, even without Jerry. And not a day goes by that we don't think of and miss Jerry. For me, Phil has really carried the torch of Grateful Dead music, and the Grateful Dead itself, in his various Phil and friends incarnations. Furthur too, although that band is now on hiatus. And I dare any fan of the music to listen to either of the Joe Russo's Almost Dead shows and not be completely floored. So I would say to your friend, if you were a fan of Grateful Dead music, those songs are still being played and explored in new and meaningful ways. Go to Lockn'!

[Magnetized]

That's a substantial question, it's late at night so I can only be brief now. Yes, there are some who feel the way your friend does, but many fans of the band and Jerry, myself included, are fans of Grateful Dead music, the songs. That music has lived on in various incarnations, even without Jerry. And not a day goes by that we don't think of and miss Jerry. For me, Phil has really carried the torch of Grateful Dead music, and the Grateful Dead itself, in his various Phil and friends incarnations. Furthur too, although that band is now on hiatus. And I dare any fan of the music to listen to either of the Joe Russo's Almost Dead shows and not be completely floored. So I would say to your friend, if you were a fan of Grateful Dead music, those songs are still being played and explored in new and meaningful ways. Go to Lockn'!

That's the fest I was telling her about. I'm going and am really looking forward to it. She's not totally uninterested in it, by the way, but she has work conflicts and also lives in California.

[worldrecordplayer]

That's the fest I was telling her about. I'm going and am really looking forward to it. She's not totally uninterested in it, by the way, but she has work conflicts and also lives in California.

I knew you were referring to Lockn', I knew you are going. Maybe she should spend some time listening to some Phil shows first, and see if the music moves her sans Jerry? To go back yo your original proposition, I agree it would be different, I don't predict that Wilco's music will survive in the same way without Tweedy.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[jw harding]

Jerry is by far my favorite in the band. But I don't see it as being quite the same as Wilco without Tweedy. More like the Allmans without Duane. Similarly they have been hit and miss since the departure of their leader. I walked out on the last Ratdog show I saw, would never see one of those again. Some Phil shows I've seen have been astounding with the quality of jamming going back to the Dead's peak. Other times a bit tedious and exhausting. Furthur/Other Ones/Dead seem pretty inconsistent. Last "The Dead" show I saw was amazing though. Certainly worth checking out if you love the songs, vibe, scene, etc. 

[worldrecordplayer]

I walked out on the last Ratdog show I saw, would never see one of those again.

 

Me too, several years ago at the Orpheum in Boston. But I will be seeing them again at Lockn'. I've heard this last tour with a new configuration has been very good. I'll see.

[calvino]

Ratdog has been playing great as of late, as posted before, saw them last month or so. I have been to boring Ratdog shows, though.

 

If one likes the actual tunes, because of not having Garcia around anymore, sounds like a pretty dumb reason to not see any more shows with these tunes are being played - IMHO, of course. (And I don't mean that your friend is dumb, WilcoMe )

 

I don't equate Tweedy's role in Wilco to Garcia's role in the Grateful Dead - for one Garcia didn't write the lyrics that draw me to the Dead tunes as much as Garcia guitar playing does.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

Great conversation, and certainly a relevant question. For me, the whole "other Dead members doing Jerry songs" never really bothered me, because I have not seen it done in what I considered an excessive manner. For example, the first couple Ratdog shows I saw, back between 2002-2003, Bob only did a couple of Jerry songs: one show featured Dark Star, Mississippi Half-Step and Brokedown Palace, and the other featured New Speedway Boogie and Terrapin. All great songs, and people there seemed really excited to hear them.

 

In more recent years, I have seen some set lists where half the show or more seemed a virtual tribute to Garcia...leading to some online debates, and a fair question: why not do some of the songs you wrote, Bob, like Black-Throated Wind, Cassidy, etc., etc.? Kind of like, "If you're so great, why are you living in Jerry's shadow?" But I don't think that Weir or Phil or any of them think that way. They just like to draw from the vast Dead repertoire, and enough time has gone by where they don't expect to get any real flak about it. Or they may not even think about it at all.

 

For me, I have to second what worldrecordplayer wrote: "many fans of the band and Jerry, myself included, are fans of Grateful Dead music, the songs. That music has lived on in various incarnations, even without Jerry." No one can ever replace Jerry, but it's cool that people still want to hear this music. And I'm even happy hearing the Chris Robinson Brotherhood cover it. Back in the '90s, I never would have imagined the dude from the Black Crowes being a Deadhead, of all things!

[Atticus]

With several exceptions, I listen to the dead for Jerry's playing.

 

In many ways I would rather see a handful of bands cover Dylan tunes these days than watch Dylan do Dylan. Because of how much I love the songs, many of which he now butchers.

 

When I used to live in Dallas I went to a weekly cover gig called the Dead Thing all the freakin time. It actually helped me grow to like a lot of dead tunes that I had sort of ignored before--sheerly from experiencing them from a live band in person.

 

My point being there's something about the dead's music that opens up live. If the band is tight and into it, I could see myself enjoying it no matter who's playing. Weir can get annoying.

[bigloop]

I don't tend to listen to Phil and Friends, Furthur or Ratdog shows after the fact, no matter how hot the shows are. If I'm going to listen to Greatful Dead music outside of a concert hall or club, I'm going to listen to Jerry.  But seeing live shows is another matter entirely.  Obviously, we can't go see Jerry any more, but we can go see and hear Jerry's music performed live.  My preference is for Phil Lesh's contribution. Since 1999, Phil has had a rotating cast of "friends" who he explores the GD's music with.  Some incarnations are better than others, with one being far and away the best post-GD incarnation: known as the "Q" (for Quintet) and made up of Phil Lesh, Warren Haynes, Jimmy Herring, John Molo, and Rob Barracco. That band arguably played better, more interesting, more consistent, more adventurous music and setlists than the Dead did for many, many years at the end.  One of Phil's huge contributions to the cannon of GD music was resurrecting many songs that the Dead had simply stopped playing: Doin' that Rag, Pride of Cucamonga, Unbroken Chain, New Potato Caboose, Viola Lee Blues, Golden Road, The Eleven, Mountains on the Moon, etc.  Playing them with a vitality that hadn't been heard in decades.  Even ardent deadheads with dozens, hundreds even, shows to their credit had never heard these songs performed live.  It was such a gift.

 

In true Touch Head fashion, I started seeing the Dead in '87, got a dozen or twenty shows under my belt by 1995, had a few tapes, and was on the periphery of the culture.  It wasn't until 2000, with the return of Phil and Friends and that first run of "Q" shows, that I really, truly connected with the music and the scene. These shows were at theaters, not stadiums. The music was alive, not perfunctory. The setlists were exciting, not predictable. The fans were serious about what the music meant to them.

 

Add to that the Internet and CD burners, and the music and the shows just became so much more accessible.

 

At this point, I've seen far more Phil & Friends, Ratdog and Furthur shows than I did Grateful Dead shows.

 

Your friend is right, there are far more "Grateful Dead" fans than fans of these separate post-Jerry bands.  When "The Dead" reunited in 2004, many of them came out of the woodwork to see Phil, Bobby, Micky, and Billy play together.  Furthur played at bigger venues and sold out more shows due in part to the presence of both Phil and Bob.  There's strength in numbers...more interest it seems when there's more than one ex-member on stage.    I'll take 'em all, thank you.

[Shug]

I agree with all of big loop's statements about the Phil Quintet, total spot-on assessment.  I've never liked Ratdog at all, mostly because the set lists have always excluded nearly all of my favorite Bobby tunes and they've never had, IMO, a good enough lead guitar player nor keyboard player.  Kingfish was the Bob Weir side project that I liked but that is the long ago past.  So for me, its not about whether band members are in the bands or not, its about how a band approaches the cannon of Dead music and how good a job they do of it.  

 

I just went to see Dark Star Orchestra and they are still ripping it up.  Rob Barracco, in particular, is a very strong soloist on keys and he really helped tunes like Tennesse Jed, Stagger Lee and Jack Straw shine.  Even Melvin Seals and his version of JGB was very satisfying to me when I saw them last year.  It felt a lot like being at a real JGB show.  

 

I get that for some Heads its just not the same without Jerry and of course he is greatly missed, but many Heads love the music so much, for them its more important to hear the songs being played well than it is who is playing them.  I'd rather see Phil and Friends or Dark Star Orchestra really get into the spirit of what made the Dead musically great than to see a weak performance from a band with several original members or see the Mickey Hart Band whose current music only holds a thin connection to what the Dead were all about.

 

I hope that Mickey and Billy get together with Phil and Bobby for a tour to celebrate the 50th anniversary for one last go around and I hope they get a really good lead guitarist and keyboard player and I hope that Bobby can see his way to decide to play stuff like Lost Sailor>Saint of Circumstance, Lazy Lightning, Let It Grow, Feel Like A Stranger, Black Throated Wind, Music Never Stopped, etc.

[calvino]

With the exception of Lazy Lightning - this past tour, Weir has been playing all those songs mentioned above.

[bigloop]

Right. Except for LL, Furthur has played those all too.

 

This recent Ratdog tour has gotten great reviews.  With Steve Kimock on guitar, you've got an incredible Jerry-esque lead player. IMO, Ratdog is a shell without Kimock...

 

And, lastly, I'll second that DSO brings IT, every time I've seen them.  Commitment, energy, and if you're lucky enough to get a 70s show, some sweet setlists.

[Shug]

With the exception of Lazy Lightning - this past tour, Weir has been playing all those songs mentioned above.

Well then that's a good sign that they might play those songs with Billy and Mickey on drums on one last Grateful Dead tour, if that happens.  I agree that's its great to have Kimock on lead guitar in Ratdog.  That might get me to check them out if they came my way, but so far they haven't.  The Furthur shows I saw webcasts of were okay, but the tempos were a bit sluggish to my ears and I didn't feel the drumming was very powerful.  Having Billy and Mickey might not make a difference with both of those things, but I'd hope so.  I still want to hear GD music played live, I'm just really picky in my opinions about what bands are really bringing it.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

Confirmed on dead.net, Dave's Picks 10 will feature 12/12/69.

 

http://www.dead.net/store/daves-picks/daves-picks-volume-10-thelma-los-angeles-ca-121269

[mountain bed]

12/12/69 has a really soulful He Was a Friend of Mine, and the Alligator > Caution is FIERCE.

[Lammycat]

Friend of mine who did a bunch of taping in the 80s sent me a message last night with this link about Oade Bros. FOB aud's from Merriweather. Unfortunately, I don't know how to do BT but figured some of you might and might want these He typically does not go out of his way to recommend stuff to me so I'm assuming it's worth the listen and different/better than what's been avail previously:

:

http://db.etree.org/shn/127526

Grateful Dead 06/26/84 flac16; Source from Doug Oade: Schoeps cmc441 > Sony TC-D5M > Sony...

db.etree.org

[worldrecordplayer]

 

Friend of mine who did a bunch of taping in the 80s sent me a message last night with this link about Oade Bros. FOB aud's from Merriweather. Unfortunately, I don't know how to do BT but figured some of you might and might want these He typically does not go out of his way to recommend stuff to me so I'm assuming it's worth the listen and different/better than what's been avail previously:

:

http://db.etree.org/shn/127526

Grateful Dead 06/26/84 flac16; Source from Doug Oade: Schoeps cmc441 > Sony TC-D5M > Sony...

db.etree.org

 

Thanks for the heads up Lammy.  I'm not a big fan of the early '80's, but I know a lot of people are.  I'm downloading and will set up and put it in my Dropbox, you can grab it from there if you (or anyone else) wants to get it. Just need to PM me your email address.

[Lammycat]

Next Dave's Picks:

 

http://www.dead.net/store/daves-picks/daves-picks-volume-10-thelma-los-angeles-ca-121269?eml=dead/041014/dpbanner

[Mr. Heartbreak]

...And it's already sold out. 

 

I am not crazy about the "limited edition release" business model, but I can sure see why they do it. The fact that a band that was finished by 1995 can release a 1969 archival release and sell 14,000 copies online in a matter of a day or two is pretty impressive.

[worldrecordplayer]

Sold out already? I didn't even have a chance to think about getting it.

[mountain bed]

...And it's already sold out. 

 

I am not crazy about the "limited edition release" business model, but I can sure see why they do it. The fact that a band that was finished by 1995 can release a 1969 archival release and sell 14,000 copies online in a matter of a day or two is pretty impressive.

I wonder how they come across the number for release. If I recall correctly the Europe '72 box was like 7500, Spring '90 was 9000. The Dave's have hovered around 12-15K or so. One would think 50K wouldn't be out of line, maybe it would I dunno. But if it's going to be truly 'limited edition' they should put the SDSs back on archive to at least listen to once it's sold out. That's something I don't understand.