The Grateful Dead

[Lammycat]

John K. is a very good guitar player, the 3 Johns lineup is my favorite Phil's Friends since the Q so add Nels to this and I'm pumped!

Yeah, I still don't get the "fake Jerry" shit. I'd rather hear a guy that plays songs in a truer form than have  Ryan Adams or someone mangle the hell out of Garcia's tunes.

[jw harding]

To each their own. I find fake Jerry to be unlistenable. His singing is painful and his guitar playing is pedestrian considering the context he plays in. He has no edge, just a cornball hippie. The guy is just so derivative and worshipful of Jerry that it is creepy. There's an interview right now on jambands.com with current members of DSO who are ripping on John saying their current guitarist is much better, particularly at the early psychedelic stuff which John was not capable of doing. Maybe they're butt hurt over John leaving, but that doesn't make them wrong. Kreutzman has ripped on him too, saying in interviews that it's too bad Furthur didn't get a real lead guitarist.  Least favorite of all the regular members of Phil's lineups that I can recall. Don't care for Ryan Adams either, but at least it was interesting and listenable when not a trainwreck.

[Lammycat]

It'd take Herring/Warren with Phil any day, but don't mind John k. at all. His playing suits the line up and his voice is fine, imo. Yep, to each their own. Funny how DSO, a 100% fake everyone, is ripping on John K, who has his own side band with original material (and I LIKE DSO).

 

 Furthur is the kind of band that I think sounds fine live but don't listen to any recordings of. 

 

Billy rips on Furthur, as a band, not just Jon K. 

 

Ryan Adams sucked in P&F, imo. It was painful at times to hear him play and sing a lot of typically great tunes.

[Bosco]

There's an interview right now on jambands.com with current members of DSO who are ripping on John saying their current guitarist is much better, particularly at the early psychedelic stuff which John was not capable of doing. Maybe they're butt hurt over John leaving, but that doesn't make them wrong.

 

I won't get into what DSO actually think of John or how they felt when they lost him, I've worked with a couple guys in the band and their Soundman is a real good friend of mine.  I will point out that when Phil was first putting the Q together both Rob and Jeff played three shows with Phil, Phil took Rob but passed on Jeff, he said of Jeff exactly what you are saying about John K.

 

Personally I'd take Jeff over John, but that's just me.  I'm not a big fan of John's voice either, and I kinda need to close my eyes and not look at him, but I do enjoy his playing, what's wrong with a guitar player playing Jerry's parts sounding like Jerry, isn't that the point?

 

But I disagree, this line up with Schofeild and Medeski taking things way out there while John K lays down the Jerry feel is incredible, add Nels into the mix and I'm really looking forward to this.

[jw harding]

I can't disagree with these replies. Just different strokes for different folks.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

If Dave Lemieux Were Really Honest in His Seaside Chats

 

"So, hey now, how's it goin', eh? I know you guys are looking forward to another average Dave's Pick, and I'm going to tell it like it is. This show is from a little tiny place in L.A. that was called Thelma. I'm not going to bore you with trivia about it, because that is what liner notes are for. Okay, let's get right to it!

 

"This show starts off with an average version of Cold Rain and Snow for this era. It's not as fast as it was before but not as slow as it would be later. Phil's backup vocals are not as bad as they are on some of the other recordings out there, so thank God for that, eh? This is followed by a tentative Bobby vocal on Me and My Uncle. Now, don't be too disappointed here, because this isn't the confident Bobby from a couple years later. He sounds nervous, and he probably was. Give the kid a break. After that, there's a really sweet version of Easy Wind...one of the first ever! Actually, it starts out excruciatingly slow, but when the guitar solo comes in, it sounds pretty good at this tempo.

 

"Well, I'm not going to lie to ya, okay, I know everyone just got this for the Alligator>Caution segment on the last disc, so there's not much point reviewing the whole thing, eh? Let's skip ahead. That Alligator>Caution deal is just epic. Really, really beautiful. The show surrounding it is kind of an average to subpar performance for '69, complete with plenty of off-key vocals and bum notes, but hey, it's the Dead. It's supposed to clear out a room! Besides, the Road Trips series was kind of a bust, so we have to sell full shows to make money off you guys. And did we ever! Kiss my ass if you don't like it. Okay, see ya next time, eh?"

[Lammycat]

Well done and pretty apt.

[IRememberDBoon]

haha all kinds of busts on this thread

as an official DeadHead I can say from my own experience that you should screw everything post Brent and for sure everything post Jerry.

I would say the best thing Ive seen post JG was The Other Ones in 1998 with Kimock and Hornsby to sing the Jerry parts and then after that was 1999 Phil and Phish with Trey playing and singing Jerry perfectly (meaning different but great) seriously give the Unbroken Chain a listen and its the best any band every played live. IMO

Since then I could really care less unless maybe its in a very intimate setting or something. I don't know I just want to hear something NEW and NEW songs like a Wilco show of MMJ or Flaming Lips  or even Edward Sharpe or Black Crowes (Chris Robinson can do some good Dead) orwhatever...........who wants to pay good money to see some rehashed sh*t??? There are at least one hundred bands I would want to go see before Phil and Bob and whoever else.

They should just set up the Wall of Sound and play some old shows or something

[mountain bed]

If Dave Lemieux Were Really Honest in His Seaside Chats

 

"So, hey now, how's it goin', eh? I know you guys are looking forward to another average Dave's Pick, and I'm going to tell it like it is. This show is from a little tiny place in L.A. that was called Thelma. I'm not going to bore you with trivia about it, because that is what liner notes are for. Okay, let's get right to it!

 

"This show starts off with an average version of Cold Rain and Snow for this era. It's not as fast as it was before but not as slow as it would be later. Phil's backup vocals are not as bad as they are on some of the other recordings out there, so thank God for that, eh? This is followed by a tentative Bobby vocal on Me and My Uncle. Now, don't be too disappointed here, because this isn't the confident Bobby from a couple years later. He sounds nervous, and he probably was. Give the kid a break. After that, there's a really sweet version of Easy Wind...one of the first ever! Actually, it starts out excruciatingly slow, but when the guitar solo comes in, it sounds pretty good at this tempo.

 

"Well, I'm not going to lie to ya, okay, I know everyone just got this for the Alligator>Caution segment on the last disc, so there's not much point reviewing the whole thing, eh? Let's skip ahead. That Alligator>Caution deal is just epic. Really, really beautiful. The show surrounding it is kind of an average to subpar performance for '69, complete with plenty of off-key vocals and bum notes, but hey, it's the Dead. It's supposed to clear out a room! Besides, the Road Trips series was kind of a bust, so we have to sell full shows to make money off you guys. And did we ever! Kiss my ass if you don't like it. Okay, see ya next time, eh?"

Hey, that's pretty damn good man. 

[calvino]

Heartbreak forgot to make a some reference regarding some type of bird flying in the background while he doing the Seaside chat....

 

I happy with latest Pick release - but I never minded the Road Trip series where he picked and chose the best stuff from a show/run.

[Winston Legthigh]

I picked up the Sunshine Daydream (Veneta OR, August 1972) concert last night - started listening on my commute to work this morning. Enjoying it so far. 

[Mr. Heartbreak]

I picked up the Sunshine Daydream (Veneta OR, August 1972) concert last night - started listening on my commute to work this morning. Enjoying it so far. 

That is a great release, far better than any of the Dave's Picks, IMHO. 

 

Hmm, a bird reference? Let's see...

 

"Well, there's an absolutely amazing Bird Song on this release, and...oh, hey, look, there seems to be a flock of seagulls coming my way. Remember that band from the 80s, A Flock of Seagulls, eh? They were pretty great for a band that had a guy whose hair looked like a...Oh, dang it, they're coming right at me!" [seagulls all swarm him, a la "The Birds," and bird shit rains down on Dave, the cameraman, and everyone else in the area. Fade to black.]

[Lammycat]

haha all kinds of busts on this thread

 

as an official DeadHead I can say from my own experience that you should screw everything post Brent and for sure everything post Jerry.

 

I would say the best thing Ive seen post JG was The Other Ones in 1998 with Kimock and Hornsby to sing the Jerry parts and then after that was 1999 Phil and Phish with Trey playing and singing Jerry perfectly (meaning different but great) seriously give the Unbroken Chain a listen and its the best any band every played live. IMO

 

Since then I could really care less unless maybe its in a very intimate setting or something. I don't know I just want to hear something NEW and NEW songs like a Wilco show of MMJ or Flaming Lips  or even Edward Sharpe or Black Crowes (Chris Robinson can do some good Dead) orwhatever...........who wants to pay good money to see some rehashed sh*t??? There are at least one hundred bands I would want to go see before Phil and Bob and whoever else.

 

They should just set up the Wall of Sound and play some old shows or something

Come on, man. There are plenty of good shows post-Brent. There has been plenty of good music made in this scene post-Garcia, too. It's different, of course, but a lot of it is certainly worthy of a night out of fun. I 'll never get the bashing of anything that resembles anything close to someone playing tunes that Jerry used to wail on. I appreciate the fact that I can still go out for a night and here this music. It is what it is and what it is, to me, is decent night out of memories and live music of tunes I dig.

[worldrecordplayer]

Come on, man. There are plenty of good shows post-Brent. There has been plenty of good music made in this scene post-Garcia, too. It's different, of course, but a lot of it is certainly worthy of a night out of fun. I 'll never get the bashing of anything that resembles anything close to someone playing tunes that Jerry used to wail on. I appreciate the fact that I can still go out for a night and here this music. It is what it is and what it is, to me, is decent night out of memories and live music of tunes I dig.

I agree.  As much of a Jerry fan as I am, and as much as he meant to the entire GD gestalt, the bottom line for me is the songbook.  I love the songs and the music.  There's absolutely no reason these songs should die with Jerry. I don't get that at all.  I'm really happy to go out and hear a night of well played GD music. I saw Warren and the Boston Pops last week, fantastic.  Furthur and Phil and Friends qualify as well played GD music for me.  I also don't get the JK bashing, but to each their own.  I think his playing and singing fits right in with the GD music.  I'd rather hear him sing Jerry tunes than Bobby.  Plus, with Furthur, any time I get a chance to hear a band with Joe Russo playing drums is a worthwhile venture.  Someone above set up the false choice of who they'd rather see on a given night.  Well I'm sure I'd rather see Wilco on any given night than anyone else, and there are lots of bands I like to see, but I've never had to make the choice to see Furthur or Phil or Wilco on the same night. So to me that point goes by the wayside.   Having said all that, I will confess I've never seen DSO, for the reason that going to see an exact performance of a GD show always creeped me out.    

[Bosco]

Come on, man. There are plenty of good shows post-Brent. There has been plenty of good music made in this scene post-Garcia, too. It's different, of course, but a lot of it is certainly worthy of a night out of fun. I 'll never get the bashing of anything that resembles anything close to someone playing tunes that Jerry used to wail on. I appreciate the fact that I can still go out for a night and here this music. It is what it is and what it is, to me, is decent night out of memories and live music of tunes I dig.

 

I'll go so far as to say I've seen Phil and Furthur shows that were better then a lot of Dead shows I've seen.

[calvino]

I only caught DSO once and that was long time ago (see the below - my wife and friend didn't even stay for the 2nd set, it was a little weird and it was still somewhat close to 95, so it made things even weirder for us -- some of the crowd was really into the show, which was great from those, but we didn't think the actual music being played that night warranted it)

 

I remember hearing a lot about them when they started playing in Chicago in the late 90s but never paid much attention to their scene much --- I had friends who went to Martyr's (they played there every week or so when they started out) quite a bit and I lived nearby the venue, but never saw them play there.

 

I wish they would play some free street fest gig somewhere -- because I wouldn't mind seeing them again, but I don't want to spend $30 bucks to see them.

 

 

Show: 73 • 10/09/1998 Double Door, Chicago, IL

 

Setlist: 10-10-1976 Oakland-Alameda County Stadium, Oakland, CA 1: Might As Well, Mama Tried, Ramble On, Cassidy, Deal, El Paso, Loser, Promised, FOTD, Dancin> Wharf Rat> Dancin
2: Samson, B. E. Women, Playin> drums> Wheel> Other One> Stella Blue> Playin> Sugar Magnolia
Encore: Johnny B. Goode
Filler: Revolution

Notes: Originally billed as "Day on the Green #9"

[mountain bed]

I'll go so far as to say I've seen Phil and Furthur shows that were better then a lot of Dead shows I've seen.

I saw the GD 75+ times, and I must say The Q in '01 was one of the best bands I've ever seen. It was jaw-droppingly good.

[jw harding]

There was a Phil Quintet show I saw in 2000 that ranks up with the best shows I've ever seen. https://archive.org/details/2000-10-21.paf.sbd.philleshnet.2356.sbeok.flacf Loved the Q, and have generally found Phil's various Friends to be the most consistent and appealing shows to check out post-Dead, until John joined in.

 

Also saw a The Dead show at the Forum in LA on their last tour with Warren and Chimenti that was up there with the best Grateful Dead shows I've seen, but I know that lineup could be hit or miss. The difference in this show was it was pretty high energy, seems to be a rarity with Bob Weir these days.

 

Walked out of a Ratdog show a few years back. Just a dreadful, plodding, directionless mess.

 

Saw a DSO show back in Chicago at Martyrs in their early days. Was fun but creepy. I'd check them out again if I got a free ticket, but $30 for a cover band is a bit much.

 

Anyway, the only thing more frustrating than the opinions of people who hate the Dead is the opinions of other Deadheads on their preferences with the Dead. 

[Shug]

I saw the GD 75+ times, and I must say The Q in '01 was one of the best bands I've ever seen. It was jaw-droppingly good.

Completely agree with ya, mountainbed.  That band freaking blew me away.  Low Spark of High Heeled Boys at the Kaiser for New Year's eve in 2000

[Lammycat]

The Q was/is awesome......I also liked when C Robinson sat/sits in.

[mountain bed]

Completely agree with ya, mountainbed.  That band freaking blew me away.  Low Spark of High Heeled Boys at the Kaiser for New Year's eve in 2000

That is a monster, marathon of a show!

[winterland121072]

This discussion just highlights to me that "the Dead," "Ratdog," "Further," etc. is trying to capture that which can not be captured - Jerry. Jerry was the most musically gifted member of the Grateful Dead and his loss cannot be replaced.

 

He was able to take relatively simple (and sometimes boring) songs and make them incredibly interesting and unique. That talent cannot be matched. Similarly, Zeppelin couldn't replace Jimmy Page, and Wilco couldn't replace jeff tweedy.

 

While the other bands (I like to call them collectively as "The Sans Garcians") may be marketable and fun to see, the music will never come close to what it was with Jerry.

 

I think Weir and Lesh have set their expectations too high with their various bands. it seems that they are trying to continue the Grateful Dead musical experience. This expectation is flawed for two reasons. First, as noted above, Jerry cannot be replaced. Second, Weir and Lesh seem to be taking rolls that they never really had in the Grateful Dead. I saw "the Dead" in 2002(?) with Joan Osborne and Jimmy Herring, and various other Phil Friends / Ratdog over the years. For the Herring / Osborne / lesh / Weir show I was really up close and could watch the band interact during the longer jams. Jimmy wasn't taking the lead per se. Instead he seemed to really be following the direction from either Weir or Lesh, and often they seemed to clash. With the Grateful Dead, Jerry would occasionally take suggestions from Weir / Lesh, but for the most part, Jerry led and they followed. Upon following, Weir / Lesh created incredibly beautiful rhythms - but they were following. With the various "Sans Garcians," I see Weir / Lesh taking the lead which was never really their role. It sounds off during the jams to me. It sounds forced. The result is the Jerry Plug-in acting nothing like Mr. Garcia.

 

it is as if Weir and Lesh are saying here we are - come see what still lives on. And seeing them perform, it only makes you remember what is forever lost.

 

I won't get into what DSO actually think of John or how they felt when they lost him, I've worked with a couple guys in the band and their Soundman is a real good friend of mine.  I will point out that when Phil was first putting the Q together both Rob and Jeff played three shows with Phil, Phil took Rob but passed on Jeff, he said of Jeff exactly what you are saying about John K.

 

Personally I'd take Jeff over John, but that's just me.  I'm not a big fan of John's voice either, and I kinda need to close my eyes and not look at him, but I do enjoy his playing, what's wrong with a guitar player playing Jerry's parts sounding like Jerry, isn't that the point?

 

But I disagree, this line up with Schofeild and Medeski taking things way out there while John K lays down the Jerry feel is incredible, add Nels into the mix and I'm really looking forward to this.

[mountain bed]

This discussion just highlights to me that "the Dead," "Ratdog," "Further," etc. is trying to capture that which can not be captured - Jerry. Jerry was the most musically gifted member of the Grateful Dead and his loss cannot be replaced.

 

He was able to take relatively simple (and sometimes boring) songs and make them incredibly interesting and unique. That talent cannot be matched. Similarly, Zeppelin couldn't replace Jimmy Page, and Wilco couldn't replace jeff tweedy.

 

While the other bands (I like to call them collectively as "The Sans Garcians") may be marketable and fun to see, the music will never come close to what it was with Jerry.

 

I think Weir and Lesh have set their expectations too high with their various bands. it seems that they are trying to continue the Grateful Dead musical experience. This expectation is flawed for two reasons. First, as noted above, Jerry cannot be replaced. Second, Weir and Lesh seem to be taking rolls that they never really had in the Grateful Dead. I saw "the Dead" in 2002(?) with Joan Osborne and Jimmy Herring, and various other Phil Friends / Ratdog over the years. For the Herring / Osborne / lesh / Weir show I was really up close and could watch the band interact during the longer jams. Jimmy wasn't taking the lead per se. Instead he seemed to really be following the direction from either Weir or Lesh, and often they seemed to clash. With the Grateful Dead, Jerry would occasionally take suggestions from Weir / Lesh, but for the most part, Jerry led and they followed. Upon following, Weir / Lesh created incredibly beautiful rhythms - but they were following. With the various "Sans Garcians," I see Weir / Lesh taking the lead which was never really their role. It sounds off during the jams to me. It sounds forced. The result is the Jerry Plug-in acting nothing like Mr. Garcia.

 

it is as if Weir and Lesh are saying here we are - come see what still lives on. And seeing them perform, it only makes you remember what is forever lost.

I love this post. Cheers!

[Shug]

I get what you are saying, winterland, but I see Jerry and Phil more as co-leaders (musically, not vocally or in songwriting or personality) in the improvisation.  They both studied and perfected their techniques with lots of diligence and single-minded focus for many years before the Dead ever got going, both listened voraciously to other music to create a pallette of sounds and styles to draw from and they both were, to my ears, the prime instigators of the adventurousness in the music and I think they were relatively equal in their musical brilliance.  Bob was not on their level, particularly at first, but he developed and eventually found his own place and strange sound to contribute to the music. I think Phil is as capable of leading a psychedelic rock ensemble as much as Jerry ever was, but he needs truly aggressive guitar player(s) to co-lead with him.  Warren and Jimmy Herring together, to my ears, did that very well and that is why to me the Q stands out above all of the post-Jerry Dead-related lineups and I think the Q alone was the band that captured something on the same level of brilliance as the Grateful Dead did, even when they were at their best. 

[Lammycat]

I don't think one needs to compare any of the above-mentioned bands to the Grateful Dead. That's ridiculous. Of COURSE nothing compares. It's not a contest or a race to a finish line that has ended. I've never once thought that any Weir/Lesh/Hart/Kreutzman-configured band was trying to capture the essence of the GD, but rather keep good tunes alive. Nothing wrong with that, in my book. If some folks can't stomach any of the offshoots, that's cool. But really, they (the offshoots)needn't be taken too seriously, anyway. Besides, I'd rather have the remaining members still playing live tunes than being in retirement just because Garcia kicked.