A Thread for Musical Blasphemy you Truly Believe

[Winston Legthigh]

Well that does suck. Boo on Paul.

 

Edit, yup his website lists him only ....what a douche. I guess they don't call it show business for nothing...

LouieB

I think that Los Lobos went into the studio with Paul with the understanding that they would be his backing band on a song. When they got to the studio, Paul didn't have a song after all, and asked them to "jam" something out. They said they didn't work that way, and so the next day, in order to get out of the studio, they trotted out a song they were working on, but hadn't recorded yet. The next thing they knew - the album came out with the song and they had no writing credits.

 

The whole story, (well at least the whole story according to Steve Berlin) is here. 

[LouieB]

Pretty interesting story. I totally believe Steve Berlin on this. I also totally understand why they are pissed. (One Trick Pony is certainly one of the lowest points of Paul Simon's career too.)

 

LouieB

[Winston Legthigh]

Pretty interesting story. I totally believe Steve Berlin on this. I also totally understand why they are pissed. (One Trick Pony is certainly one of the lowest points of Paul Simon's career too.)

 

LouieB

I had thought that he hit his low point with Hearts and Bones, which came out in 83. That would have been the most recent album before Graceland, and probably is the one Steve Berlin was thinking of.

 

At least, One Trick Pony had "Late in the Evening"...

[Mr. Heartbreak]

Here's some Dylan blasphemy:

Oh Mercy > John Wesley Harding

[jff]

The Stone Roses deserve nothing more than footnote status in the history of British pop.

Here's some Dylan blasphemy:
Oh Mercy > John Wesley Harding

I saw John Wesley Harding open for the Violent Femmes once.  It was a more enjoyable 40 minutes that Dylan's John Wesley Harding.

[PopTodd]

The Stone Roses deserve nothing more than footnote status in the history of British pop.

While not quite "blasphemy" I will disagree, if only for the fact that they sparked the whole Madchester scene. If not for their followers, I would agree. One classic album and a pretty good follow-up are not the things of legend.

I will say that The La's, on the other hand, probably do.

Again: one classic album.

But nothing else. And one cannot really point to a whole lot of individual bands that they inspired, let alone an entire movement.

[jff]

While not quite "blasphemy" I will disagree, if only for the fact that they sparked the whole Madchester scene. If not for their followers, I would agree. One classic album and a pretty good follow-up are not the things of legend.

I will say that The La's, on the other hand, probably do.

Again: one classic album.

But nothing else. And one cannot really point to a whole lot of individual bands that they inspired, let alone an entire movement.

I think I'd rather listen to Spacehog than Stone Roses.

[LouieB]

I had thought that he hit his low point with Hearts and Bones, which came out in 83. That would have been the most recent album before Graceland, and probably is the one Steve Berlin was thinking of.

 

At least, One Trick Pony had "Late in the Evening"...

Oh yea, thanks for reminding me of Hearts and Bones...what a dog. I think you may be right. One Trick Pony was a pretty unwatchable movie too. I don't think I watched the entire thing.

 

 

Here's some Dylan blasphemy:

Oh Mercy > John Wesley Harding

Well okay, except for me Oh Mercy = John Wesley Harding.

 

Oh Mercy has a few songs on it that are exceptionally strong. Man in the Long Black Coat being one of them.

 

LouieB

[froggie]

Here's some Dylan blasphemy:

Oh Mercy > John Wesley Harding

 

if it wasnt for the ear-shattering harmonica on JWH, i cant decide!. Being a Wilbury freak, i'll take Oh mercy

[John Smith]

Here's some Dylan blasphemy:

Oh Mercy > John Wesley Harding

Yes this truly is blasphemous

[worrierking]

I think that Los Lobos went into the studio with Paul with the understanding that they would be his backing band on a song. When they got to the studio, Paul didn't have a song after all, and asked them to "jam" something out. They said they didn't work that way, and so the next day, in order to get out of the studio, they trotted out a song they were working on, but hadn't recorded yet. The next thing they knew - the album came out with the song and they had no writing credits.

 

The whole story, (well at least the whole story according to Steve Berlin) is here. 

 

Somebody with better inside knowledge of the music business can chime in and tell me where I am wrong, but where the heck are the managers/agents in all this?  These guys are paid on a percentage of revenue right?  Wouldn't it be their job to make sure that if the Los Lobos guys went into the studio with Paul Simon that they got any writing credit for their work if it was proper?  If you are Paul Simon's business manager/agent/lawyer wouldn't it be your job to make sure he didn't do anything that would potentially get him sued?  I can't believe this would be handled entirely by the musicians like it seems in the story as told by Berlin.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

One of the quotes from that Steve Berlin tale reads as follows:

 

 

 

That year, that was a song we started working on By Light of The Moon. So that was like an existing Lobos sketch of an idea that we had already started doing. I don't think there were any recordings of it, but we had messed around with it. We knew we were gonna do it. It was gonna turn into a song.

 

So it was a "sketch of an idea." Never been recorded. It was going to "turn into a song." But it wasn't yet a song? It was, what? A riff?

 

I'm sorry, I don't know Paul Simon personally, and I don't know these guys either, but it sounds pretty thin to me.

 

Amusingly enough, the Steve Berlin article has him saying they were "pretty high up on the food chain" in 1986 when this was recorded and that Paul Simon was "floundering." Seriously? You could make an argument that fellow living legend Bob Dylan was floundering in the 80s too. And Los Lobos had just had their first major label release in 1984. They had a hit in 1987 with their cover of La Bamba; after Graceland was already out. I must be missing something about this food chain of which he speaks.

 

Here is Simon's response to their allegations (on Wikipedia, if that's accurate):

 

 

 

"I just said at this stage I don't care whether the album comes out without Los Lobos on it. I was getting really tired of it—I don't want to get into a public slanging match over this, but this thing keeps coming up. So we finished the recordings. And three months passed, and there was no mention of 'joint writing.' The album came out and we heard nothing. Then six months passed and Graceland had become a hit and the first thing I heard about the problem was when my manager got a lawyer's letter. I was shocked. They sent this thing to my manager, not me. If there was a problem, they could have contacted me direct. They've got my home number; we talked a lot. If you ask me, it was a lawyer's idea. You know, 'The record's a hit, and there's $100,000 in it.' They had nine months from the recordings to talk to me about all this, but I heard nothing. And it's still not sorted out, because they still keep bringing it up—I heard they'd done this interview for you. I don't want to get into a public slanging match with them, because I really like their music."

[Atticus]

is this all over "All Around the World or the Myth of Fingerprints"?

 

it's a plain, standard accordion riff and simple drum beat.   I'm confused.

 

that's what Simon "stole"?

[anthony]

Here's some Dylan blasphemy:

Oh Mercy > John Wesley Harding

Jesus H-Bomb Christmas that is heresy. I adore JWH and cannot find the will power to listen to post 1980 Dylan.

[The High Heat]

One of the quotes from that Steve Berlin tale reads as follows:

 

 

 

 

 

So it was a "sketch of an idea." Never been recorded. It was going to "turn into a song." But it wasn't yet a song? It was, what? A riff?

 

I'm sorry, I don't know Paul Simon personally, and I don't know these guys either, but it sounds pretty thin to me.

 

Amusingly enough, the Steve Berlin article has him saying they were "pretty high up on the food chain" in 1986 when this was recorded and that Paul Simon was "floundering." Seriously? You could make an argument that fellow living legend Bob Dylan was floundering in the 80s too. And Los Lobos had just had their first major label release in 1984. They had a hit in 1987 with their cover of La Bamba; after Graceland was already out. I must be missing something about this food chain of which he speaks.

 

Here is Simon's response to their allegations (on Wikipedia, if that's accurate):

They're not studio musicians. They are an established band who were brought in to help Simon develop songs for an album. Sounds like co-writing to me. Why stiff them on credit when he didn't or couldn't come up with the music on his own?

[Mr. Heartbreak]

Jesus H-Bomb Christmas that is heresy. I adore JWH and cannot find the will power to listen to post 1980 Dylan.

So heresy > blasphemy?

I'm dead serious, too.

 

To elaborate: I always felt JWH was a huge letdown. Relentlessly bleak, and I don't like the production quality at all. Some decent songs, all of which I like better when other people do them. Hendrix, obviously, took Watchtower to a whole other level, and I much prefer Jerry Garcia's covers of Drifter's Escape and Wicked Messenger.

On the other hand, I went into Oh Mercy with low expectations and was pleasantly surprised. I love Political World, Everything Is Broken and Most of the Time is just classic. And, as Louie pointed out, it also has The Man in The Long Black Coat, which is a strange but interesting Dylan tune too.

 

I stand by my original post.

[Ghost of Electricity]

don't know if it's blasphemy or not, but:   Slim>Bob

[tinnitus photography]

I think I'd rather listen to Spacehog than Stone Roses.

That's kinda like saying I'd rather listen to Aerosmith than Slayer. Tenuous connection at best.

[LouieB]

• JWH was a huge departure from Dylan's past work, obviously.  It contains a handful of really great songs and a few clunkers and was a lead-in to Nashville Skyline. At the time it was a huge letdown that ended up going on to play on Dylan's strengths.  Oh Mercy is a very strong album among a bunch with some significant weakness. Both great albums

I love the Simon/Los Lobos talk.  This shit happens all the time.  You could make the case that Dylan stole the riff from Al Kooper for LIke a Rolling Stone and didn't give him writers credit.  I think the main issue on the Simon thing is whether he stole words and a tune.  Did he?  Berlin seems to indicate he did.  How do we know?  Does Los Lobos have a tape they made of the song prior to going in with Simon?  I tend to go with the Berlin story only because I kind of believe Simon could be a dick.  However the comment about Los Lobos just starting to make it at that point is well taken.  No matter the supposed pecking order, they still were functioning as sidemen to an established musician (Look at Robbie Robertson's first album where he "employed" established artists too.) It is a story as old as the music business as to who owns what rights.  Lobos took a chance on the way up, apparently didn't bring in the managers and agents and lawyers, and got burned.  They have done okay by themselves so I can't cry for them (and really it is one of the lesser songs on the album in any event) and Los Lobos has a deep catalogue of its own that I am sure they live off of.

 

LouieB

[CortezTheKiller]

In light of the discussion regarding songwriting, here is a recent, semi-relevant article I came across:

 

http://www.npr.org/blogs/bestmusic2013/2013/12/16/251618167/thats-a-bad-lyric-and-you-know-it?ft=1&f=1039

[Atticus]

 

• JWH was a huge departure from Dylan's past work, obviously.  It contains a handful of really great songs and a few clunkers and was a lead-in to Nashville Skyline. At the time it was a huge letdown that ended up going on to play on Dylan's strengths.  Oh Mercy is a very strong album among a bunch with some significant weakness. Both great albums

I love the Simon/Los Lobos talk.  This shit happens all the time.  You could make the case that Dylan stole the riff from Al Kooper for LIke a Rolling Stone and didn't give him writers credit.  I think the main issue on the Simon thing is whether he stole words and a tune.  Did he?  Berlin seems to indicate he did.  How do we know?  Does Los Lobos have a tape they made of the song prior to going in with Simon?  I tend to go with the Berlin story only because I kind of believe Simon could be a dick.  However the comment about Los Lobos just starting to make it at that point is well taken.  No matter the supposed pecking order, they still were functioning as sidemen to an established musician (Look at Robbie Robertson's first album where he "employed" established artists too.) It is a story as old as the music business as to who owns what rights.  Lobos took a chance on the way up, apparently didn't bring in the managers and agents and lawyers, and got burned.  They have done okay by themselves so I can't cry for them (and really it is one of the lesser songs on the album in any event) and Los Lobos has a deep catalogue of its own that I am sure they live off of.

 

LouieB

 

 

have y'all read David Byrne's book How Music Works?  It has some really great stuff on these topics

[uncool2pillow]

I like good lyrics, but they're certainly not essential.  If some mundane lyrics are combined with music that conveys an emotion or feeling, then that's fine.  Here's a great clip of Steve Allen poking fun of rock and roll lyrics:

 

 

They are ridiculous lyrics, but it's a great song.  Would that song be enhanced by lyrics from Bob Dylan, Lou Reed, Joni Mitchell, Paul Simon, or, say, Robert Frost?  No.  A song is a whole.  If it moves me, it moves me.  Some lyrics are worth analyzing, but mostly not.

[anthony]

So heresy > blasphemy?

I'm dead serious, too.

 

To elaborate: I always felt JWH was a huge letdown. Relentlessly bleak, and I don't like the production quality at all. Some decent songs, all of which I like better when other people do them. Hendrix, obviously, took Watchtower to a whole other level, and I much prefer Jerry Garcia's covers of Drifter's Escape and Wicked Messenger.

On the other hand, I went into Oh Mercy with low expectations and was pleasantly surprised. I love Political World, Everything Is Broken and Most of the Time is just classic. And, as Louie pointed out, it also has The Man in The Long Black Coat, which is a strange but interesting Dylan tune too.

 

I stand by my original post.

This is totally understandable. Expectations are very powerful and can color a persons perceptions. Same is true of movies, TV or any other art form. I first listened to JWH at the peak of my Dylan obsession (we all went thru that phase, no?) and it worked for me. I loved the rough around the edges feel. It felt real, honest and unpretentious. By the time I listened to OM, I had moved on to other musical interests/obsessions and it did not click for me. I wanted something that it was not. So, in a sense, we both went into those LPs with expectations and let it color our opinions - just in reverse. 

[jff]

That's kinda like saying I'd rather listen to Aerosmith than Slayer. Tenuous connection at best.

 

 

I would rather listen to Aerosmith than Slayer.

 

Why is a connection necessary?

 

I'd also rather listen to Sesame Street Fever than any opera.

[Sir Stewart]

 

I saw John Wesley Harding open for the Violent Femmes once.  It was a more enjoyable 40 minutes that Dylan's John Wesley Harding.

 

Hey, me too. 1990, right? I remember it because I hated him.