winterland121072 Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 The 15 Nov 1972 PITB is a monster...purely ephemeral Jerry...Exactly one month later he performed another amazing Truckin' Dark Star... Link to post Share on other sites
Shug Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 and 3 days after Wichita 11-15-72 they played another monster Playin' in Houston 11-18-72. This one is intense, just a bit shorter than the Wichita, but may be one of the greatest performances by the Dead ever. Wow, they are going off!!! https://archive.org/details/gd72-11-18.set2-sbd.cotsman.9002.sbeok.shnf November 1972 is one of those months for the Dead when they could do no wrong, "Can't stop the train, gotta let it roll on". Kinda like May 1977, April 1978, October/November 1979, June 1985. Link to post Share on other sites
worldrecordplayer Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 That Houston Hofheinz Pavilion show is a monster. Should definitely be listened to if you haven't heard it. Link to post Share on other sites
Vacant Horizon Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 and 3 days after Wichita 11-15-72 they played another monster Playin' in Houston 11-18-72. This one is intense, just a bit shorter than the Wichita, but may be one of the greatest performances by the Dead ever. Wow, they are going off!!! https://archive.org/details/gd72-11-18.set2-sbd.cotsman.9002.sbeok.shnf November 1972 is one of those months for the Dead when they could do no wrong, "Can't stop the train, gotta let it roll on". Kinda like May 1977, April 1978, October/November 1979, June 1985. it is fascinating how a band can get on a streak. it's like they don't even have to try...the instruments play themselves. not to get too mystic, but it is kind of magical. Link to post Share on other sites
Shug Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Yeah, it makes me wonder what the variables were for the Dead that allowed those hot streaks to happen. Was it something mundane about touring life that was going right for everyone in the band all at the same time? No one was in a bad mood for a few weeks? Something made band members feel particularly connected or more interested in usual with doing something they did a lot of? In all the books and interviews I've read about the Dead, I don't recall that topic being explored very deeply. I recall a few quotes in David Gans' first book from Jerry and Bob about not trying to force it and also passing responsibility for the good and the bad nights off onto the mysterious thing/force that made the music come together or not. Something along the lines of "You can't make it happen when it ain't happening, as hard as you try, and when it is happening its almost as hard to mess it up" Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Heartbreak Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Yeah, it makes me wonder what the variables were for the Dead that allowed those hot streaks to happen.Mainly coke, I think. Link to post Share on other sites
winterland121072 Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Just relistened to 02 and 03 April 1989...Fun shows but not as exceptional as I remember...Very above average but not exceptional... Link to post Share on other sites
Shug Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Mainly coke, I think.I was gonna suggest it was everyone getting their high just exactly perfect, but thought it might be too crass or too obvious. But I'm sure its true to some degree. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Heartbreak Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 I was gonna suggest it was everyone getting their high just exactly perfect, but thought it might be too crass or too obvious. But I'm sure its true to some degree.I was just going for a laugh...but you never know! Link to post Share on other sites
jw harding Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 I would think the main factor as to whether they were on or not was Garcia. If he was feeling it, or had his buzz just right, the others were likely inspired and stepped it up. I think he had as profound an impact on the band members as he did the audience. Link to post Share on other sites
Shug Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 I somewhat agree with ya about Jerry's impact on the band on a given night, but there is also the saying "When Phil is on, the band is on" if you subscribe to that notion. I also don't underestimate the importance of the drummers having a good night being a big factor in how the train was rolling. I tend to think that all members of the band had an important role in how the ensemble as a whole performed. Some members' contributions were clearly more obvious than others, but I have a suspicion that even stuff Weir was doing had a signficant impact one way or another. I'm a bit surprised, over on archive.org, how strong the prevailing notion is that Jerry was far away the most important person in the band and everyone else was secondary, as if he was the one carrying the rest of the performers into brilliance. I mean, I can see a few people thinking that way, but I would think most Heads would see that the Dead and their ethos was about the collective being bigger and more important than any one person's contribution. There is a whole lot of Weir and Brent bashing that goes on over there and its surprising to me. Link to post Share on other sites
worldrecordplayer Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 They were a multi-headed monster. The nights the magic happened they were all "on" and in sync with each other. It wasn't just any one of them. Why that happened some nights and not others is the mystery of live performances. Link to post Share on other sites
winterland121072 Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 I think the reason it worked as often as it did is that it wasn't just due to one person. You may like the color green more than any other color, but a rainbow only works with each color individually represented... Perhaps it had a lot to do with the "family" mentality. Some days everyone gets along, some days not, some days less so, some more so, but on really special days, we all get along exceptionally... Link to post Share on other sites
winterland121072 Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 The bashing is interesting. I guess critically they all deserved a lot of bashing. Jerry post 91 was (imho) horrid...Jerry's singing was frequently off... Weir singing "on our OWWWWWNNNNNNNN" was painfully and wincingly bad after 1987....yow! Lesh's harmonies in 1970! wow! horrid... 1978 Keith on piano.... 1976,7,8 Donna wails... But to say that any one of them was particularly worse than anyone else is absurd... Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Heartbreak Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 For me, the Garcia/Hunter songbook is why Jerry was the king of the Dead, so to speak. I mean, imagine a band whose repertoire consists of Picasso Moon, We Can Run and Pride of Cucamonga. Link to post Share on other sites
Vacant Horizon Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 For me, the Garcia/Hunter songbook is why Jerry was the king of the Dead, so to speak. I mean, imagine a band whose repertoire consists of Picasso Moon, We Can Run and Pride of Cucamonga. Love Pride! I was thinking about this issue recently. Bobby really didn't write that many tunes for the band. Hence, lots of covers. I do not like him singing lots of Garcia songs. That has been a huge problem with the post jerry incarnations. Would've been really special if he just sang a few like Touch or Brokedown. Link to post Share on other sites
Vacant Horizon Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Yeah, it makes me wonder what the variables were for the Dead that allowed those hot streaks to happen. Was it something mundane about touring life that was going right for everyone in the band all at the same time? No one was in a bad mood for a few weeks? Something made band members feel particularly connected or more interested in usual with doing something they did a lot of? In all the books and interviews I've read about the Dead, I don't recall that topic being explored very deeply. I recall a few quotes in David Gans' first book from Jerry and Bob about not trying to force it and also passing responsibility for the good and the bad nights off onto the mysterious thing/force that made the music come together or not. Something along the lines of "You can't make it happen when it ain't happening, as hard as you try, and when it is happening its almost as hard to mess it up" Probably not magical. I'm sure when Bob felt like the show rocked Phil thought it sucked..at one time or another. Link to post Share on other sites
jw harding Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 To say it was all about Jerry is of course simplistic. And of course the other guys were all great, and there was a gestalt thing to the band. But to deny that Garcia was the most important is also silly. And if any other band member had been replaced by another quality musician, still a great band worth following. If Garcia wasn't there, who gives a shit? I mean, some people do like Ratdog, but most people do not. Some great Phil lineups depending on who he's playing with, so it's not just about Phil. The drummers, cmon. But for all these lineups, the main attractions is the Garcia/Hunter songbook and Garcia nostalgia. Link to post Share on other sites
Shug Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Silly to not think that Garcia was the only indispensible member of the band? Really? I don't understand why people can't just have their opinion without having to attempt to invalidate a differing opinion. Its a discussion, not a contest to be correct. I think there are plenty of people who value the Weir/Barlow catalog as much as the Garcia/Hunter. And plenty of folks who get that Weir's angular weird chords/rhythm stuff worked fantastically as a foil for hot Jerry soloing. You can't have long intense jamming that was the hallmark of early Dead like in '68 and '69 and in '72-'74 without the drumming and bass and keyboard rhythm to provide a foundation for the whole thing. And I think all those guys did all that in a unique way that made the sound what it was. I hear that you don't hold that opinion, but it certainly does not mean that its silly to not hold your opinion. Link to post Share on other sites
jw harding Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Well, I think it's silly. Sorry if you disagree, not meant to be a personal attack, don't take it that way. I'm sure there are plenty of opinions people hold about all sorts of things you find to be silly too. Have you heard what some people think about this guy called Jesus? Or Donald Trump? Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Heartbreak Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 I actually am such a Jerry-head that I often get into JGB shows more than some of the Dead material I own. But I think it's because I favor the Jerry songs and also find the consistency of the musicianship in the JGB to be more enjoyable. The Dead were absolute magic when they were firing on all eight cylinders and improvising beautifully...but there were also a hell of a lot of train wrecks, as winterland mentioned: flubbed lyrics, brutal transitions, and off-key/out-of-tune vocals from a variety of offenders over the years! Whereas the Jerry bands tend to sound pretty consistent to me. I still listen to Dead shows obsessively, though. This week, it's been '72 and some '78 that I haven't heard before. I've got about 50-100 SBDs I've never gotten to, and I'm just trying to get through a few of them each month. At this point, I pretty much listen for the Jerry solos, in hopes of hearing something that will make my toes curl. The listening party on the Dead.net page for the '78 box has a nice Estimated solo. Really sweet. Link to post Share on other sites
calvino Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 Weir has always been my favorite - without him, I don't think the Dead wouldn't have been as popular - for better or worse. I think he has been the glue -- with Phil and Billy, of course. Garcia was definitely the leader -- I think the rest of the band would agree - but I think on stage they all sounded equal. I think Bobby hamming it up was a great benefit for the band -- plus he (and Barlow) are great song writers. Back in the day - Tweedy was talking about a band needing a center and him being that center (which always bugged me) - I don't think the Grateful Dead ever had a center, which may have led to some train wrecks. In the JGB shows, Jerry was definitely the center. Link to post Share on other sites
Vacant Horizon Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 Definitely one of those interesting situations where all of them together was the ultimate. JGB was pretty close though. Loved John Kahn. What also made the Dead cool was the fact that there were two major songwriters both of which were amazing. Add in Phil and you've got for some very interesting song combinations. Link to post Share on other sites
mountain bed Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 I actually am such a Jerry-head that I often get into JGB shows more than some of the Dead material I own. But I think it's because I favor the Jerry songs and also find the consistency of the musicianship in the JGB to be more enjoyable. The Dead were absolute magic when they were firing on all eight cylinders and improvising beautifully...but there were also a hell of a lot of train wrecks, as winterland mentioned: flubbed lyrics, brutal transitions, and off-key/out-of-tune vocals from a variety of offenders over the years! Whereas the Jerry bands tend to sound pretty consistent to me. That's exactly the reason why I MUCH favor The Dead over JGB. I LOVE the train wrecks, when shit just barely hangs together. I know I'm a minority on that one. The consonance of the JGB makes for pleasant listening no doubt, but I love the idea of "America's Longest-Running Musical Argument". I really dig when it's horrible or boring sometimes. Neil Young once said, "Long flat expanses of professionalism bore me". I'm NOT suggesting that JGB was boring (not at all!) but compared to the GD ethic it IS a professional touring band for sure. There's really nothing (for me) that any side project does that equals what they did together. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Heartbreak Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 I LOVE the train wrecks, when shit just barely hangs together. I know I'm a minority on that one. What about Legion of Mary? Link to post Share on other sites
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