The Grateful Dead

[jw harding]

Nope....my first show was in 1988...Alpine....Saw them until 1993....Became too difficult to see Jerry / Vince...And other bands (Trey) was really worth seeing more than Vince.

 

I generally feel that Vince was the gravedigger for Jerry and the Grateful Dead. Musically, I don't think he was that interesting or impressive but really made it difficult was how joined Jerry in heroin. Jerry brought himself to it. But Vince joined him.

 

Oh to ponder about how Jerry could have aged into his 60s switching to only acoustic shows....

 

Some real lows in the Vince era, but that causes some real good stuff to get overlooked. This blog captures some of the best moments, particularly the space improv, which was generally much further out there then they ever went with Brent. Brent fans will disagree. 

 

http://saveyourface.posthaven.com/

[worldrecordplayer]

To my ears the only good thing about the Vince era were the Hornsby shows. I really hated Vince's sound. 

[winterland121072]

I just remember that Jerry in 88 / 89 was like seeing a reborn individual / band. They seemed excited and confident with high self esteem.

 

Brent died and things changed.

 

Jerry started heroin again in 1989 before brent died so it is not fair to blame Vince for the initial demise. But, i remember seeing them in 92 / 93 and everyone I saw shows with just seemed to “know”. We all loved it but we all knew it was or was near then end…

 

It was like hearing that your friend / brother / father was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. We just knew...And on top of that knowledge were the feared looks on Bobby and Phil's faces...And on top of that was this madman who was screaming absurd harmonies who seemed deliriously happy and frantic and mimicked jerry's parts on his keyboard while Jerry looked weaker and weaker and more frail and craven. It was like visiting your friend / brother / father at the hospital when it could be "any day now" and there was someone who barely knew your friend but acted like he had been there forever and absurdly oblivious as to what was happening around him.

 

vince just always seemed like "that drunk guy."

 

After every show in 92 / 93 that I saw it was like I was trying to say goodbye and there was this lunatic getting in the way screaming, ironically, about a way to go home. After each of the shows in 93 I thought it was likely to be Jerry's last…

 

It was like Vince felt like he earned his way through the Tubes and everything and finally "made it" now that he was playing keys for the Grateful Dead and he was gonna enjoy every minute of it. What he didn't understand was that he joined a Grateful Dead that was diagnosed with a terminal illness. He never seemed sensitive enough. I'm probably displacing a lot of negative energy unfairly on welnick. Who knows…

 

That era really shaped me for many future events in my life. I truly loved this musician and I guess still do. Maybe I was and still am looking to blame. Who knows...I learned a lot about seeing a person's slow demise. I learned a lot about myself.

 

But after seeing the listless Other One soloing and the Standing on the Moon in Chicago 1993, I said goodbye…

 

Honestly, when I was heading to Kaplan MCAT prep with my future wife on august 9, 1995 i remember being surprised for several things...surprised that i wasn't surprised...surprised that it took until 1995...surprised at the response from everyone who hadn't ever experienced him...surprised that I had so completely moved on with my life in a 36 month span...surprised how much i hadn't...surprised that while I still listened to him on a day to day basis that I no longer was a touring head...surprised how intensely it hit me...surprised at how lonely i felt..surprised that a part of me died that day...surprised (years later upon reflection) that a part of me became an adult that day...just surprised...

[mountain bed]

I just remember that Jerry in 88 / 89 was like seeing a reborn individual / band. They seemed excited and confident with high self esteem.

 

Brent died and things changed.

 

Jerry started heroin again in 1989 before brent died so it is not fair to blame Vince for the initial demise. But, i remember seeing them in 92 / 93 and everyone I saw shows with just seemed to “know”. We all loved it but we all knew it was or was near then end…

 

It was like hearing that your friend / brother / father was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. We just knew...And on top of that knowledge were the feared looks on Bobby and Phil's faces...And on top of that was this madman who was screaming absurd harmonies who seemed deliriously happy and frantic and mimicked jerry's parts on his keyboard while Jerry looked weaker and weaker and more frail and craven. It was like visiting your friend / brother / father at the hospital when it could be "any day now" and there was someone who barely knew your friend but acted like he had been there forever and absurdly oblivious as to what was happening around him.

 

vince just always seemed like "that drunk guy."

 

After every show in 92 / 93 that I saw it was like I was trying to say goodbye and there was this lunatic getting in the way screaming, ironically, about a way to go home. After each of the shows in 93 I thought it was likely to be Jerry's last…

 

It was like Vince felt like he earned his way through the Tubes and everything and finally "made it" now that he was playing keys for the Grateful Dead and he was gonna enjoy every minute of it. What he didn't understand was that he joined a Grateful Dead that was diagnosed with a terminal illness. He never seemed sensitive enough. I'm probably displacing a lot of negative energy unfairly on welnick. Who knows…

 

That era really shaped me for many future events in my life. I truly loved this musician and I guess still do. Maybe I was and still am looking to blame. Who knows...I learned a lot about seeing a person's slow demise. I learned a lot about myself.

 

But after seeing the listless Other One soloing and the Standing on the Moon in Chicago 1993, I said goodbye…

 

Honestly, when I was heading to Kaplan MCAT prep with my future wife on august 9, 1995 i remember being surprised for several things...surprised that i wasn't surprised...surprised that it took until 1995...surprised at the response from everyone who hadn't ever experienced him...surprised that I had so completely moved on with my life in a 36 month span...surprised how much i hadn't...surprised that while I still listened to him on a day to day basis that I no longer was a touring head...surprised how intensely it hit me...surprised at how lonely i felt..surprised that a part of me died that day...surprised (years later upon reflection) that a part of me became an adult that day...just surprised...

This is one of the real real quality posts in these threads in my view. A LOT of it resonates with me. The timeline is slightly different - a bit longer (so what!) but I quit touring after the Fall '93 Richfield shows. I did only Deer Creek in '94 and '95 because it's literally 20 minutes from my front door, but those Richfield shows were a real revelation (read:bummer) for me. They were the first shows I saw after the massive Jam out of Terrapin from 6/23/93 - the last time magic really visited  the stage that I saw. 11 weeks later it was basically a low-energy sleepwalk for 3 days and I was like, "Not enough return on this investment". It wasn't just onstage, either. The scene deteriorated tour by tour after Touch hit. Nobody has to agree with me here - but I think we can all agree that things changed.

 

One thing I DO think is of paramount importance is the switch to in-ear monitors - I'm thinking around early '92, about the time Bruce left.Left to their own devices they only listened to what they wanted to hear, which brings a very un-cohesive sound I think. Vince was certainly in over his head but he wasn't not talented - the Phil & Friends show from 9/24/94 shows that he could be a very sympathetic, tasty player. Once Bruce left Vince got  more piano-based sounds and it worked off and on. 

 

Fun fact : my adoption of my daughter was finalized on 8/1/95, and then in October I quit a job of nearly 17 years and took a different path. Garcia's death is very much a line drawn across my life in many ways.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

This is one of the real real quality posts in these threads in my view. The scene deteriorated tour by tour after Touch hit. Nobody has to agree with me here - but I think we can all agree that things changed.

 

I agree, and feel much the same.

 

The timeline was different for me, too. Sometimes people think I saw a zillion shows because I'm such a Deadhead, but in reality I only caught about a half dozen Dead shows during Jerry's life. The first was in '82, then a few in '83 and '84. I was in school, and had an academic scholarship, so touring was never going to be on the table for me. My parents probably would have disowned me.

 

By '84, Jer really looked like shit. His playing was suffering, although it still had a ways to fall. We know today that he'd had a habit for eight years by then; at the time, we just knew something was going bad without knowing the details of his intake. But I felt bad being around it. I might have sought out more shows in '85 or '86, but I encountered the "froggy Jerry" sound during their NYE 1985 radio broadcast, and that was a disappointment. On the night they announced that he'd slipped into a diabetic coma, I had just taken a dose and sat down to listen to the Grateful Dead Hour. Long story short, I ended up alone, having the worst trip of my life between midnight and 6 a.m. I don't think anyone expected him to survive, least of all me. In retrospect, I'm a little surprised I survived that night intact.

 

When Jerry came back from the dead (ha!) and the band became a stadium act, I'd sort of moved on. I heard about "Touch Heads" from people in the scene, and it lost most of its appeal. But old Jer kept on trucking, and when I finally got clean and sober in '89, I caught one of the JGB shows (now immortalized as part of the Long Island Sound box). It was a good show, but of course, by then his voice really was shot out - more from cigs than junk, I guess, but still.

 

One of my Deadhead buddies also sobered up, and we decided to give the Dead another try in the fall of '91. Brent had died - another massive bummer - but we thought we'd see if we could tolerate the expanded "scene" we'd been hearing about since '87 or so.

 

And that was it. My final Dead show, last time seeing Jerry alive, in September '91 at Madison Square Garden. It was just a few days after the much-hyped Branford Marsalis appearance, and it was a downer on a level I'm not even sure I can convey. An 8-song first set with a decent Althea (I think), but not much else to recommend it. During the 2nd set, Mickey started playing that weird thing he likes (I don't know what it's called, but it makes a harsh sound when he hits it). My friend and I, both straight, looked at each other with dismay. By the time the slow, croaking Knockin' On Heaven's Door finished, we were demoralized and drained. It sounded like Jerry was knockin' on heaven's door already. And yes, we had zero connection with "new guy" Vince. I think it would be safe to say our impression was that he sucked - added nothing to make any songs better, may have made some songs worse.

 

The next four years came and went, and I got the gut punch when I heard the announcement in August '95 - but I wasn't surprised. If anything, I was surprised he'd stayed alive so long.

 

Today I pretty much celebrate Jerry's life by listening to mainly 70s-era Dead, with a bit of Jerry & Merl or JGB, and a tiny smattering of 80s thrown in. It can be fun seeing a Brent-era show on video, because Jerry clearly loved playing with the guy, but for me, '69-'78 is my comfort zone.

[Lammycat]

With regard to Vince (and pretty apt synopsis of his time in the band), I have to comment that Keith, towards the end of his time with the band, was often heard simply mimicking Garcia's licks and was, imo, often a hindrance. While there were, of course, positives up until the end (and I honestly think the same can be said with the GD and Vince....Philly '95 being an example that always pops into my head), Keith wasn't what he once was and was often derailing the band by '79.

 

I kept going to shows until '95 (though markedly cut down on going due, in large, to the quality decline mentioned already) but was not surprised when the news came in August of '95. 

[winterland121072]

I may be in the minority here, but I think 1978 was one of the band's worst years. Keith was a mess and Donna not much better. Keith was either mimicking or basically playing percussion with his keys...

[Shug]

Nope....my first show was in 1988...Alpine....Saw them until 1993....Became too difficult to see Jerry / Vince...And other bands (Trey) was really worth seeing more than Vince.

 

I generally feel that Vince was the gravedigger for Jerry and the Grateful Dead. Musically, I don't think he was that interesting or impressive but really made it difficult was how joined Jerry in heroin. Jerry brought himself to it. But Vince joined him.

 

Oh to ponder about how Jerry could have aged into his 60s switching to only acoustic shows....

Is it generally known that Vince used heroin, too?    Other than that, he was a baffling pick for keyboard replacement.  I, too, find very little redeeming qualities in his playing, singing, or songwriting.  I hypothesized that they picked him because he wouldn't challenge anyone and could easily be told what to do.

 

Billy says "“As for Vince, I’m not sure who invited him,” Kreutzmann writes in Deal. “We looked at other keyboardists [and] Vince Welnick was my least favorite. He was flat broke and desperate for work. Perhaps that played into our decision to hire him. Vince got voted in by default.”

[Winston Legthigh]

I may be in the minority here, but I think 1978 was one of the band's worst years. Keith was a mess and Donna not much better. Keith was either mimicking or basically playing percussion with his keys...

 

I enjoyed the 78 July box that came out a couple years ago. And I think the Red Rocks shows from that tour are up there with the best, but generally, I haven't found much else from 78 that I care for. 

[Lammycat]

Is it generally known that Vince used heroin, too?    Other than that, he was a baffling pick for keyboard replacement.  I, too, find very little redeeming qualities in his playing, singing, or songwriting.  I hypothesized that they picked him because he wouldn't challenge anyone and could easily be told what to do.

 

Billy says "“As for Vince, I’m not sure who invited him,” Kreutzmann writes in Deal. “We looked at other keyboardists [and] Vince Welnick was my least favorite. He was flat broke and desperate for work. Perhaps that played into our decision to hire him. Vince got voted in by default.”

I've never heard of Vince using heroin. Met and hung with him a few times post-Garcia. Nice guy. Liked to drink and mingle with the people! Either way, he never quite fit the mold of the band, imo.

[jw harding]

Brent also got hired because he was basically around, already playing with Bobby. And Keith volunteered for the position. Not much thought went into picking the Dead's keyboard players. 

[Lammycat]

Brent also got hired because he was basically around, already playing with Bobby. And Keith volunteered for the position. Not much thought went into picking the Dead's keyboard players. 

Well, Ian McLagan was apparently approached by the GD after Brent died. He apparently turned down the offer to audition because he wasn't into their sound.Cool article on their "hiring" process, notes on some who auditioned and some who didn't:

http://hooterollin.blogspot.com/2011/08/grateful-dead-hiring-practices-ian.html

[Shug]

Brent also got hired because he was basically around, already playing with Bobby. And Keith volunteered for the position. Not much thought went into picking the Dead's keyboard players. 

I disagree. Brent was talented: played great, especially on a real Hammond and early on some great 70s electric pianos and sang both lead and high harmony great.  Same for Keith, he played a real piano and could play the shit out of honky tonk stuff as well as jazzy stuff and lots in between.  None of that is true for Vince, IMO.

[jw harding]

I disagree. Brent was talented: played great, especially on a real Hammond and early on some great 70s electric pianos and sang both lead and high harmony great.  Same for Keith, he played a real piano and could play the shit out of honky tonk stuff as well as jazzy stuff and lots in between.  None of that is true for Vince, IMO.

My post made no comment on their talent or abilities, just the selection process or lack thereof. 

[Shug]

My post made no comment on their talent or abilities, just the selection process or lack thereof. 

It sounded like you were saying they got hired because they were around, not for any other reason, like their talent, so my disagreement was that Brent and Keith got hired because of their talent.  For Vince, its baffling because he had very little. 

[Analogman]

I just noticed Amazon Prime has added Anthem to Beauty (plus a bunch more of those Classic Albums documentaries). 

[jw harding]

Believe I also read that Rob Barraco was in "consideration" after Brent died. Maybe that was from an interview with Barraco himself. Could've been a good choice, but not surprised they didn't pick him due to age difference and lack of experience on the big stage.

 

Seems everyone is in agreement that Vince was not great. Who would've been better? Have to pick someone who can sing, as that seems to be the main criteria in picking Vince over the others who auditioned. 

 

Hornsby obviously. Steve Winwood would be a cream dream. Can Chuck Leavell sing? I dunno, can't think of any other great choices. 

[Winston Legthigh]

Stevie Wonder.

[jw harding]

Stevie Wonder.

Either Stevie or Elton John are the obvious choices.

[Lammycat]

Believe I also read that Rob Barraco was in "consideration" after Brent died. Maybe that was from an interview with Barraco himself. Could've been a good choice, but not surprised they didn't pick him due to age difference and lack of experience on the big stage.

 

Seems everyone is in agreement that Vince was not great. Who would've been better? Have to pick someone who can sing, as that seems to be the main criteria in picking Vince over the others who auditioned. 

 

Hornsby obviously. Steve Winwood would be a cream dream. Can Chuck Leavell sing? I dunno, can't think of any other great choices. 

Baracco  was like 19 or 20 in 1990! Per what I've read, and per the link I posted above, even, the selection process (in large due to the timeline of lined up shows and huge financial obligations/tied up money) was brief and was not something the rest of the band wanted to really even deal with. The decision was hasty and largely based on the vocals, apparently, as they thought that whomever was on board could learn the piano/keys parts with the help of Hornsby....

[jw harding]

Baracco  was like 19 or 20 in 1990! per what I've read, and per the link I posted above, even, the selection process (in large due to the timeline of lined up shows and huge financial obligations/tied up money) was brief and was not something the rest of the band wanted to really even deal with. The decision was hasty and largely based on the vocals, apparently, as they though that whomever was on board could learn the pinao/keys parts with the help of Hornsby....

If you got his age off the internet, that is incorrect. He was not born in 1970, and certainly not only 48 years old now. He was playing professionally in the 80's, including with the Zen Tricksters, who I think at the time were the premier GD cover band. 

[Lammycat]

If you got his age off the internet, that is incorrect. He was not born in 1970, and certainly not only 48 years old now. He was playing professionally in the 80's, including with the Zen Tricksters, who I think at the time were the premier GD cover band. 

Yeah, that seems right. Zen Tricksters have been around for a long while....

[calvino]

I guess they could have went without a keyboardist for at least the tour that was booked prior to Brent's death, like they did when Pigpen was absent a bit, but I am guessing that was never an option. 

 

I seem to remember hearing that Brent was going to have issues going to the Europe for the fall 90 tour (due to legal issues)  -- I wonder how they would have handled that, if Brent would have lived. 

[Lammycat]

Either Stevie or Elton John are the obvious choices.

Not as obvious as Michael McDonald!

 

And yeah, if I recall Brent was looking at possible jail time for multiple DUIs at the time of his death.

[jw harding]

Not as obvious as Michael McDonald!

 

And yeah, if I recall Brent was looking at possible jail time for multiple DUIs at the time of his death.

Somewhat related, but seeing Johnnie Johnson in Ratdog was a trip. He made no sense being in that band, but cool of Bob to invite him to join. Probably needed some cash and got some recognition due. Ratdog never really made any sense though. Was pretty weird to see him up there jamming on Supplication or whatever.