More on the "controversy"

[M. (hristine]

I smell a rat.

Christ.

[bobbob1313]

I don't know. I think there were sinister forces at play - trying to smear my good name.

 

I can't tell if you are joking or not. I hope you are, but I fully suspect that you aren't.

[Saint Genevieve]

Is this the new RTT?

 

[Analogman]

Christ, you know it ain't easy.

 

I decided what I said was bad form - and removed it. I would appreciate it if it was removed from the quotes.

[bobbob1313]

I still don't get the conspiracy aspect. Do you really think the moderators put your words back in there just to fuck with you?

[Analogman]

Not really - but something weird seems to have happened.

[redpillbox]

So, this is rather long so feel free to ignore. I haven't been the most active participant in the boards here posting-wise but have come here often, if not daily for years now. And I'm sure all of my points have already been made here someone in one of the three or four threads, but I felt compelled to add my two-cents. For me the new relationship forged between VW and Wilco is not a deal-breaker as far as my fandom is concerned. I don't even watch that much television to begin with. However, I will say that the news came as a bit of a shock to me. I'll be the first to admit I might be defined as "an old-school purist" when it comes to issues surrounding art and commerce, even as those lines become increasingly blurred in our technological age.

 

There has been much discussion on the boards, even among band family members (which could be read as a viewpoint endorsed by the band as they were posted here by the band's family itself) regarding propriety and the "evolving" (devolving?) relationship between music and advertisements. In my opinion, I don't believe an "everyone's doing it" or an "ideal's have changed" argument necessarily justifies itself as gospel truth by virtue of our living in an information age. I understand that Wilco has the desire to reach a wider audience and I'm all for it, but I also recognize that they have become bigger and bigger still with each successive record-a trend I can't see slowing down with the solid touring base nursed over many a hard year on the road and the great new record which just sold more records in its opening week than any Wilco record in the past. And they have done this without the support of radio or MTV or much of the mainstream music press or advertisements. So it seems a bit curious that the argument would be bandied about that they would want to open another avenue of exposure ('With the commercial radio airplay route getting more difficult for many bands') when the original route cited was never really utilized through no fault of their own. With their popularity peaking now, why would they turn to adverts?

 

As I'm sure many of you have read in interviews and heard Jeff speak about, a song's relationship to its audience is almost as crucial to the meaning of the song as the songwriter's intention is in writing it in the first place..."Half of it's you and half is me." We as fans complete the life of the song in our imaginations. What happens when an image is attached to a song in an advertisement? In third party commerce? If you consider music art, if you live for the images a perfect melody creates in your minds-eye, can you help but feel some small loss or pause at the notion of a song you love being imprinted with its own image in the name of commerce?

 

I could go on...I thought about quoting "What Light" here ("what was yours is now everyone's from now on...") as it relates to the song, the fan, the artist, the purity of meaning and the covenant between the four but it has probably all been stated in one way or another. I realize I'm jumping into the discussion long after the embers burned the hottest so there are probably a lot of people that are no longer interested or fed up altogether with the discussion, but I wanted to throw this out there. I'm not trying to say I agree or disagree with anyone here, I just wanted to express some thoughts that have been bouncing around my brain since the issue first arose. My original intention was to just preface some copied articles I've kept for some time (copied below) that I found particularly eloquent, these are some perspectives from artists on the topic. Cheers.

 

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020708/densmore

 

"Riders on the Storm by John Densmore

 

 

Dread ripples through me as I listen to a phone message from our manager saying that we (The Doors) have another offer of huge amounts of money if we would just allow one of our songs to be used as the background for a commercial. They don't give up! I guess it's hard to imagine that everybody doesn't have a price. Maybe 'cause, as the cement heads try to pave the entire world, they're paving their inner world as well. No imagination left upstairs.

 

Apple Computer called on a Tuesday--they already had the audacity to spend money to cut "When the Music's Over" into an ad for their new cube computer software. They want to air it the next weekend, and will give us a million and a half dollars! A MILLION AND A HALF DOLLARS! Apple is a pretty hip company...we use computers.... Dammit! Why did Jim (Morrison) have to have such integrity?

 

I'm pretty clear that we shouldn't do it. We don't need the money. But I get such pressure from one particular bandmate (the one who wears glasses and plays keyboards).

 

"Commercials will give us more exposure," he says. I ask him, "so you're not for it because of the money?" He says "no," but his first question is always "how much?" when we get one of these offers, and he always says he's for it. He never suggests we play Robin Hood, either. If I learned anything from Jim, it's respect for what we created. I have to pass. Thank God, back in 1965 Jim said we should split everything, and everyone has veto power. Of course, every time I pass, they double the offer!

 

It all started in 1967, when Buick proffered $75,000 to use "Light My Fire" to hawk its new hot little offering--the Opel. As the story goes--which everyone knows who's read my autobiography or seen Oliver Stone's movie--Ray, Robby and John (that's me) OK'd it, while Jim was out of town. He came back and went nuts. And it wasn't even his song (Robby primarily having penned "LMF")! In retrospect, his calling up Buick and saying that if they aired the ad, he'd smash an Opel on television with a sledgehammer was fantastic! I guess that's one of the reasons I miss the guy.

 

It actually all really started back in '65, when we were a garage band and Jim suggested sharing all the songwriting credits and money. Since he didn't play an instrument--literally couldn't play one chord on piano or guitar, but had lyrics and melodies coming out of his ears--the communal pot idea felt like a love-in. Just so no one got too weird, he tagged that veto thought on. Democracy in action...only sometimes avenues between "Doors" seem clogged with bureaucratic BS. In the past ten years it's definitely intensified...maybe we need a third party. What was that original intent? Liberty and justice for all songs...and the pursuit of happiness.... What is happiness? More money? More fame? The Vietnamese believe that you're born with happiness; you don't have to pursue it. We tried to bomb that out of them back in my youth. From the looks of things, we might have succeeded.

 

This is sounding pretty depressing, John; where are you going here? The whole world is hopefully heading toward democracy. That's a good thing, John.... Oh, yeah: the greed gene. Vaclav Havel had it right when he took over as president of Czechoslovakia, after the fall of Communism. He said, "We're not going to rush into this too quickly, because I don't know if there's that much difference between KGB and IBM."

 

Whoa! Here comes another one: "Dear John Densmore, this letter is an offer of up to one million dollars for your celebrity endorsement of our product. We have the best weight loss, diet and exercise program, far better than anything on the market. The problem is the celebrity must be overweight. Then the celebrity must use our product for four weeks, which will take off up to 20 pounds of their excess body fat. If your endorsement works in the focus group tests, you will immediately get $10,000.00 up front and more money will start rolling in every month after that--up to a million dollars or more." Wow! Let's see...I've weighed 130 pounds for thirty-five years--since my 20s...I'll have to gain quite a bit...sort of like a De Niro thing...he gained fifty pounds for Raging Bull--and won an Oscar! I'm an artist, too, like him...

 

We used to build our cities and towns around churches. Now banks are at the centers of our densely populated areas. I know, it's the 1990s.... No, John, it's the new millennium, you dinosaur. Rock dinosaur, that is. My hair isn't as long as it used to be. I don't smoke much weed anymore, and I even have a small bald spot. The dollar is almighty, and ads are kool, as cool as the coolest rock videos.

 

Why did Jim have to say we were "erotic politicians"? If I had been the drummer for the Grassroots, it probably wouldn't have cut me to the core when I heard John Lennon's "Revolution" selling tennis shoes...and Nikes, to boot! That song was the soundtrack to part of my youth, when the streets were filled with passionate citizens expressing their First Amendment right to free speech. Hey...the streets are filled again! Or were, before 9/11. And they're protesting what I'm trying to wax on and on about here. Corporate greed! Maybe I should stick to music. I guess that's why I hit the streets with Bonnie Raitt during the 1996 Democratic National Convention. We serenaded the troops. Bob Hope did it during World War II, only our troops are those dressed in baggy Bermuda shorts, sporting dreadlocks. Some have the shaved Army look, but they're always ready to fight against the Orwellian nightmare. A woman activist friend of mine said that with the networking of the Net, what's bubbling under this brave new world will make the '60s unrest look like peanuts. I don't want "Anarchy, Now," a worn-out hippie phrase, but I would like to see a middle class again in this country.

 

Europe seems saner right now. They are more green than us. They're paranoid about our genetically altered food and they're trying to make NATO a little more independent in case we get too zealous in our policing of the globe. When The Doors made their first jaunt from the colonies to perform in the mother country back in '67, the record companies seemed a little saner, too. The retailers in England could order only what they thought they could sell; no returns to the manufacturers. That eliminated the tremendous hype that this country still produces, creating a buzz of "double platinum" sales, and then having half of the CDs returned. Today, there is a time limit of three to six months for the rackjobbers to get those duds back to the company.

 

Our band used to be on a small folk label. Judy Collins, Love and the Butterfield Blues Band were our Elektra labelmates. We could call up the president, Jac Holzman, and have a chat...and this was before we made it. Well, Jac sold out for $10 million back in '70, and we were now owned by a corporation. Actually, today just five corps own almost the entire record business, where numbers are the bottom line. At least we aren't on the one owned by Seagram's! Wait a minute...maybe we'd get free booze...probably not. Advances are always recoupable, booze probably is too.

 

Those impeccable English artists are falling prey as well. Pete Townshend keeps fooling us again, selling Who songs to yuppies hungry for SUVs. I hope Sting has given those Shaman chiefs he hangs out with from the rainforest a ride in the back of that Jag he's advertising, 'cause as beautiful as the burlwood interiors are, the car--named after an animal possibly facing extinction--is a gas guzzler. If you knew me back in the '60s, you might say that this rant--I mean, piece--now has a self-righteous ring to it, me having had the name Jaguar John back then. I had the first XJ-6 when they came out, long before the car became popular with accountants. That's when I sold it for a Rolls Royce-looking Jag, the Mark IV, a super gas guzzler. That was back when the first whiffs of rock stardom furled up my nose. Hopefully, I've learned something since those heady times, like: "What good is a used-up world?" Plus, it's not a given that one should do commercials for the products one uses. The Brits might bust me here, having heard "Riders on the Storm" during the '70s (in Britain only) pushing tires for their roadsters, but our singer's ghost brought me to my senses and I gave my portion to charity. I still don't think the Polish member of our band has learned the lesson of the Opel, but I am now adamant that three commercials and we're out of our singer's respect. "Jim's dead!" our piano player responds to this line of thought. That is precisely why we should resist, in my opinion. The late, transcendental George Harrison had something to say about this issue. The Beatles "could have made millions of extra dollars [doing commercials], but we thought it would belittle our image or our songs," he said. "It would be real handy if we could talk to John [Lennon]...because that quarter of us is gone...and yet it isn't, because Yoko's there, Beatling more than ever." Was he talking about the Nike ad, or John and Yoko's nude album cover shot now selling vodka?

 

Actually, it was John and Yoko who inspired me to start a 10 percent tithe, way back in the early '80s. In the Playboy interview, John mentioned that they were doing the old tradition, and it stuck in my mind. If everybody gave 10 percent, this world might recapture a bit of balance. According to my calculations, as one gets up into the multi category, you up the ante. Last year I nervously committed to 15 percent, and that old feeling rose again: the greed gene. When you get to multi-multi, you should give away half every year. Excuse me, Mr. Gates, but the concept of billionaire is obscene. I know you give a lot away, and it's easy for me to mouth off, but I do know something about it. During the Oliver Stone film on our band, the record royalties tripled, and as I wrote those 10 percent checks, my hand was shaking. Why? It only meant that I was making much more for myself. It was the hand of greed. I am reminded of the sound of greed, trying to talk me into not vetoing a Doors song for a cigarette ad in Japan.

 

"It's the only way to get a hit over there, John. They love commercials. It's the new thing!"

 

"What about encouraging kids to smoke, Ray?"

 

"You always have to be PC, don't you, John?" I stuck to my guns and vetoed the offer, thinking about the karma if we did it. Manzarek has recently been battling stomach ulcers. So muster up courage, you capitalists; hoarding hurts the system--inner as well as outer.

 

So it's been a lonely road resisting the chants of the rising solicitations: "Everybody has a price, don't they?" Every time we (or I) resist, they up the ante. An Internet company recently offered three mil for "Break on Through." Jim's "pal" (as he portrays himself in his bio) said yes, and Robby joined me in a resounding no! "We'll give them another half mil, and throw in a computer!" the prez of Apple pleaded late one night.

 

Robby stepped up to the plate again the other day, and I was very pleased that he's been a longtime friend. I was trying to get through to our ivory tinkler, with the rap that playing Robin Hood is fun, but the "bottom line" is that our songs have a higher purpose, like keeping the integrity of their original meaning for our fans. "Many kids have said to me that 'Light My Fire,' for example, was playing when they first made love, or were fighting in Nam, or got high--pivotal moments in their lives." Robby jumped in. "If we're only one of two or three groups who don't do commercials, that will help the value of our songs in the long run. The publishing will suffer a little, but we should be proud of our stance." Then Robby hit a home run. "When I heard from one fan that our songs saved him from committing suicide, I realized, that's it--we can't sell off these songs."

 

So, in the spirit of the Bob Dylan line, "Money doesn't talk, it swears," we have been manipulated, begged, extorted and bribed to make a pact with the devil. While I was writing this article, Toyota Holland went over the line and did it for us. They took the opening melodic lines of "Light My Fire" to sell their cars. We've called up attorneys in the Netherlands to chase them down, but in the meantime, folks in Amsterdam think we sold out. Jim loved Amsterdam."

 

(end of article)

 

Tom Waits' response to this piece in a letter to the editor:

 

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20021007/letter

 

"Perception of Doors

 

Woodland Hills, Calif.

 

Thank you for your eloquent "rant" by John Densmore of The Doors on the subject of artists allowing their songs to be used in commercials ["Riders on the Storm," July 8]. I spoke out whenever possible on the topic even before the Frito Lay case (Waits v. Frito Lay), where they used a sound-alike version of my song "Step Right Up" so convincingly that I thought it was me. Ultimately, after much trial and tribulation, we prevailed and the court determined that my voice is my property.

 

Songs carry emotional information and some transport us back to a poignant time, place or event in our lives. It's no wonder a corporation would want to hitch a ride on the spell these songs cast and encourage you to buy soft drinks, underwear or automobiles while you're in the trance. Artists who take money for ads poison and pervert their songs. It reduces them to the level of a jingle, a word that describes the sound of change in your pocket, which is what your songs become. Remember, when you sell your songs for commercials, you are selling your audience as well.

 

When I was a kid, if I saw an artist I admired doing a commercial, I'd think, "Too bad, he must really need the money." But now it's so pervasive. It's a virus. Artists are lining up to do ads. The money and exposure are too tantalizing for most artists to decline. Corporations are hoping to hijack a culture's memories for their product. They want an artist's audience, credibility, good will and all the energy the songs have gathered as well as given over the years. They suck the life and meaning from the songs and impregnate them with promises of a better life with their product.

 

Eventually, artists will be going onstage like race-car drivers covered in hundreds of logos. John, stay pure. Your credibility, your integrity and your honor are things no company should be able to buy.

 

TOM WAITS"

[Analogman]

Songs carry emotional information and some transport us back to a poignant time, place or event in our lives. It's no wonder a corporation would want to hitch a ride on the spell these songs cast and encourage you to buy soft drinks, underwear or automobiles while you're in the trance. Artists who take money for ads poison and pervert their songs. It reduces them to the level of a jingle, a word that describes the sound of change in your pocket, which is what your songs become. Remember, when you sell your songs for commercials, you are selling your audience as well.

TOM WAITS

 

That's a great way to put it.

[ShuckOwens]

I'm pretty sure I heard "What light" in a GE soft white bulb commercial.

[Guest Jules]

My apologies - do to the nature of this discussion, I fully admit I'm acting a bit on the defensive side.

 

I don't know why I'm reading this thread anyway, and I let this go the first few times, but dude, it's DUE!

[mountain bed]

I remember when Garcia did a ditty for Levi's 501 Jeans. I thought it was a great little piece, actually.

I was so thankful that 40+ pages had passed & no one had mentioned this. Thanks, my brother.

[fortuneinmyhead]

still no one answered my question:

 

what is the difference of a wilco song in a vw commercial or being played on a commercial radio station? it's a wilco song, then a commercial for a car dealership / night club / coca cola / whatever.

perhaps the purists out there think that wilco should stop seeking radio play and become purely an NPR band.

 

oh wait, NPR accepts corporate contributions and sponsorships too. i guess they have sold out as well.

[Analogman]

still no one answered my question:

 

what is the difference of a wilco song in a vw commercial or being played on a commercial radio station? it's a wilco song, then a commercial for a car dealership / night club / coca cola / whatever.

perhaps the purists out there think that wilco should stop seeking radio play and become purely an NPR band.

 

oh wait, NPR accepts corporate contributions and sponsorships too. i guess they have sold out as well.

 

 

The way I see it - they licensed the rights to a song to a car company.

 

On a radio station, they sell ads as a means of operating - not via the licensing permission of a band.

[fortuneinmyhead]

whether licensed or not it's the convergence of art and commerce. sure, wilco doesn't know what ads are playing on a station, but wilco, the station, and the advertiser are all in bed with each other helping each other to make money. there are differences for sure between the vw commercial and a commercial radio station; but the concept is quite similar: wilco is helping out vw, vw is helping out wilco. i guess i see the same scenario with a commercial radio station.

 

and citing the Doors as a sterling example? one of the most commercial bands in history .. even if they didn't sell to the TV ad meanies. they've sold their soul a few times over in my estimation.

[tongue-tied]

still no one answered my question:

 

what is the difference of a wilco song in a vw commercial or being played on a commercial radio station?

 

it might be similar to the difference between having sex with somebody and sitting next to them on a bus. we live in a world filled with people, doesn't mean you have to be in them.

[MrRain422]

it might be similar to the difference between having sex with somebody and sitting next to them on a bus. we live in a world filled with people, doesn't mean you have to be in them.

 

But is sex wrong? Personally I think it's not, and therefore by your own metaphor, there's nothing wrong with licensing a song for a commercial.

 

Just because you don't have to doesn't mean there's anything wrong with doing it.

 

I'm still enjoying this thread way too much.

[fortuneinmyhead]

I guess I already made my point.

 

wilco has 3 choices:

 

stay where they are (no radioplay, cult fanbase)

 

play the Payola game to try to get radioplay (unlikely)

 

license to TV or movies (hey, wilco actually gets to make a few dollars and gain exposure to a wider audience)

 

gee, if i was the artist here it would seem like a no brainer. no band wants to linger in obscurity.

[Atticus]

I've been working today. Did anyone resolve the prostitute question?

[Good Old Neon]

I've been working today. Did anyone resolve the prostitute question?

 

It

[tongue-tied]

But is sex wrong? Personally I think it's not, and therefore by your own metaphor, there's nothing wrong with licensing a song for a commercial.

 

Just because you don't have to doesn't mean there's anything wrong with doing it.

 

I'm still enjoying this thread way too much.

 

i'm not saying that sex or advertising is always wrong or right. but your wife's use of public transportation doesn't justify your overtime with the secretary.

[Basil II]

The Doors Buick commercial did indeed air in markets in the South.......when JDM found out ,,he was livid according contemporary acounts........the doors then became a band first friends ....a distant second. remember ....this band was fully 1/4 voting power........something wilco never was.....

 

 

 

 

-Robert.

[mountain bed]

The Doors Buick commercial did indeed air in markets in the South.......when JDM found out ,,he was livid according contemporary acounts........the doors then became a band first friends ....a distant second. remember ....this band was fully 1/4 voting power........something wilco never was.....

-Robert.

I could be mistaken, but wasn't that around the time that songwriting credits started being broken down individually? Previously, all songs were credited to the whole band.

[giraffo]

billboard only proves there are a lot of people out there buying albums while others are downloading them...this is pretty evident in the firsts up there.

[Synthesizer Patel]

still no one answered my question:

 

what is the difference of a wilco song in a vw commercial or being played on a commercial radio station?

 

Can these songs on the VW commercial be sold to Audi for an ad campaign? I would assume not. Can the songs being played on commercial radio stations be played on 'Uni FM', or BBC Radio 2, or somesuch station? Yes. I think that is the fundamental difference.

[Calexico]

I've been working today. Did anyone resolve the prostitute question?

 

 

Wait a cotton pickin' minute there, Barbara.....there were prostitutes?