Kicking Television vinyl box set?

[Central Scrutinizer]

O.K., here's a dumb question, and it probably comes down to semantics.

 

Looking at Nonesuch's Web site out of curiosity to see what they're selling the vinyl set for, they have a joint press release announcing the release and the start of the current tour. Among the "personnel," it lists:

 

Mastered for CD by Nick Webb at Abbey Road, London, UK

Re-mastered for vinyl by Robert C. Ludwig at Gateway Mastering, Portland, ME

 

So, my question is, "re-mastered for vinyl"? Does that mean Ludwig remasters the master done by Nick Webb, which was done for CD audio? Or would Ludwig go back to the original mix from Jim Scott and Stan Doty and move forward? If it's the former, how much would vinyl enhance the experience? One of the knocks of digital vs. analog is the issue of ambiant noise, and that it doesn't neatly fit into the world of ones and zeroes. A master made for a digital environment ignores, or at least doesn't acutely consider those aspects that make vinyl listeners ooh and ahh.

 

Another question is about the continuity of such a project. Looking at the same list of personnel, there's also this:

 

Recorded by Mike Konopka and Timothy Powell for Metro Mobile, Glenview, IL

Assisted by Dan Glomski, Michael Ways and Jordan McCormick

Mixed by Jim Scott with Stan Doty at Sunset Sound, Los Angeles, CA

 

You're talking four (arguably) five steps where decisions are made on the sound of this recording, then handed off to different pairs of ears to rehandle and re-manipulate the recording. I don't raise that as a knock, but more thinking out loud about the process and whether what you ultimately get on vinyl would match or even enhance the experience more than the 2005 release. Given the circumstances, maintaining the quality is an impressive enough goal.

[Lukestar]

O.K., here's a dumb question, and it probably comes down to semantics.

 

Looking at Nonesuch's Web site out of curiosity to see what they're selling the vinyl set for, they have a joint press release announcing the release and the start of the current tour. Among the "personnel," it lists:

 

Mastered for CD by Nick Webb at Abbey Road, London, UK

Re-mastered for vinyl by Robert C. Ludwig at Gateway Mastering, Portland, ME

 

So, my question is, "re-mastered for vinyl"? Does that mean Ludwig remasters the master done by Nick Webb, which was done for CD audio? Or would Ludwig go back to the original mix from Jim Scott and Stan Doty and move forward? If it's the former, how much would vinyl enhance the experience? One of the knocks of digital vs. analog is the issue of ambiant noise, and that it doesn't neatly fit into the world of ones and zeroes. A master made for a digital environment ignores, or at least doesn't acutely consider those aspects that make vinyl listeners ooh and ahh.

 

Legit question. Ask them and find out.....

 

http://www.gatewaymastering.com/default.asp

 

...let us know if you hear anything.

[Central Scrutinizer]

Legit question. Ask them and find out.....

 

http://www.gatewaymastering.com/default.asp

 

...let us know if you hear anything.

Damn, if I knew homework was involved ...

[augustus westerberg]

Shipping costs from the Wilco store for orders outside the U.S. are outrageous. Seeing the sale on older LP's (buy 3 get 20% off) I went to order some and they wanted $35 for shipping ($12 per album? come on...), ended up getting them from amazon.ca instead and with free shipping saved a bundle even though the albums were on average $5 more there.

 

Pre-ordered KT vinyl from amazon too, $70 Canadian plus their standard free shipping on orders over $39.

[nalafej]

Seems possible that the additional work done for the LP is related to the new tracks.

[rockinrob]

remastered for vinyl means they went back to the original master tape "the mixdown" and redid the mastering process from that point. This is another clue pointing to a high quality vinyl pressing. CD masters usually have alot of compression to make them sound louder, resulting in a loss of dynamics and causing ear fatigue. Vinyl doesnt have the ability to take this much signal very well, and this compression really kills the sound quality of a lot of recordings. Seeing that this was remastered for vinyl means that it will probably be very dynamic, and it will also be eq'ed to better suit the playback medium. The new tracks would also have to be mastered, but I bet they were mastered during the digital mastering sessions anyways and are being remastered just like the older tracks

 

Mastering is the post mix process of going through the tracks and eq'ing them to make them sound more similar to each other, and to smooth them out. Compression is a process that averages the sound, making the quiet portions louder and closer to the loud parts. Limiting helps achieve maximum volume without distortion. The combination of heavy compression (instead of sound waves with peaks and troughs, an essentially straight wave) and limiting (pushing that straight wave up as loud as possible without it distorting) gives us the modern "loud" cd. As you can see by this description, this doesnt sound like it would sound very good.

 

The old school way of mastering uses the same processes, but typically much more subtly, and with the final goal of improved sound rather than more perceived volume. This process can make a final mix breathe more, and gives the instruments an added clarity. A wide dynamic range is still intact, but reigned in somewhat to allow for adequate volume. Ear fatigue is rarely a result of listening to these types of recordings. This is partly why you feel tired after listening to an hour of mp3s but can literally listen to vinyl for 12 hours and still feel great

 

So in summary, for those of you that dont know, it goes like this:

 

Different instruments are recorded on separate tracks. These tracks are mixed together so that they all fit nicely, and this is recorded in stereo (2-track). The two track "master tape" is then further processed and recorded to another stereo tape. This final mastered recording is then used to make the copies of the albums you buy.

[El Bacho]

Actually, vinyl has less dynamics (it has a very low s/n ratio for instance) and it requires some compression for the music to fit in. But this compression (or this limiting) is something instrumental in how a rock recording is supposed to sound.

 

Current CDs have little dynamics due to everybody wanting the music sounding louder than the competition. That's why the compression is much more aggressive than what the mastering engineer is used to do on a vinyl edition.

 

KT was recorded and certainly mixed in digital (the shows were taped for a cancelled companion DVD), then the high def stereo master was handled to the mastering engineer to make a CD of it. You can be sure there was a large sticker on the box where some guy from the record company wrote in red letters to "Make it loud". The guy does most of the tweaking and the record company is happy.

 

For the vinyl edition, you're right, they went back to the actual stereo master while many vinyl editions are just sourced from the 16 bit/44.1 kHz CD master and sound actually worse than the CD edition, hence the precision.

 

It won't make the vinyl sound more warm and analog but it could sound a little better than the regular CD, even if Wilco is not, by far, the worst offender in CD mastering.

[SarahC]

For the vinyl edition, you're right, they went back to the actual stereo master while many vinyl editions are just sourced from the 16 bit/44.1 kHz CD master and sound actually worse than the CD edition, hence the precision.

If I remember correctly, a long time ago there was some discussion about the original pressings of "Being There" on vinyl, and how it sounded worse than the CD. I wonder if the reason for that is what you just described?

 

I may as my parents for this set for my birthday. The more I think about it, the cooler it would be to have. Especially after listening to the reissued "Being There" and "Summerteeth"

[LouieB]

If I remember correctly, a long time ago there was some discussion about the original pressings of "Being There" on vinyl, and how it sounded worse than the CD. I wonder if the reason for that is what you just described?

 

 

When those were issued Wilco didn't have nearly the clout it has now. At this point they get to have some quality control over their product.

 

LouieB

[SarahC]

When those were issued Wilco didn't have nearly the clout it has now. At this point they get to have some quality control over their product.

 

LouieB

Right. That's a great thing for sure!

[Analogman]

Also - as it was explained above, the old vinyl records were made from the same master as the cds.

 

On the other side of that, one of the reasons old cds generally sound like crap is due to the fact they were made using the same source as the last pressing of the vinly record album.

 

At least you don't have record sleeves with advertisements on them for other albums these days. I also recall when cd booklets contained ads, and generic artwork.

 

I am not a fan of the loudness wars, and it is rare thing when re-issues come out right. There are some good ones out there, and some not so good ones.

[Central Scrutinizer]

Also - as it was explained above, the old vinyl records were made from the same master as the cds.

 

On the other side of that, one of the reasons old cds generally sound like crap is due to the fact they were made using the same source as the last pressing of the vinyl record album.

 

At least you don't have record sleeves with advertisements on them for other albums these days. I also recall when cd booklets contained ads, and generic artwork.

 

I am not a fan of the loudness wars, and it is rare thing when re-issues come out right. There are some good ones out there, and some not so good ones.

Rockinrob, very good information. Thank you for the details. That explains a lot and raised some of the same questions that El Bacho touched upon. The proof will be in the pudding.

 

Analogman, I remember those points being made about CDs when I was debating whether to buy a player back in the 80s. As it turned out, my Mother bought me one so I eased into it. Besides starting from the vinyl masters, CD mastering also, IIRC, also took a lot of the ambiance out because they were hyper sensitive to make the CDs sound as "clean" as possible.

[choo-choo-charlie]

Wow. This is all very interesting information. I thought my original pressing of BT on vinyl sounded pretty good, but it appears that it might be worth picking up the new version for an even better listening experience?

[thejokeexplained]

That surprises me (due to the vinyl buying fad). I wonder if it is about the price? It seems odd that something like that would take a year to sell.

 

 

 

By the definition, I'm not really sure how you can consider vinyl a fad.

 

"an intense and widely shared enthusiasm for something, esp. one that is short-lived and without basis in the object's qualities"

 

Vinyl has been around longer then any listening media and has plenty of basis in the quality.

[Analogman]

By the definition, I'm not really sure how you can consider vinyl a fad.

 

"an intense and widely shared enthusiasm for something, esp. one that is short-lived and without basis in the object's qualities"

 

Vinyl has been around longer then any listening media and has plenty of basis in the quality.

 

How about calling it a current resurgence among young people?

 

I don't recall seeing any record albums in stores since cds became the format of choice. I am talking about chain places, not the corner mom and pop record store with used vinyl, and 45s of the local bands. Of course, now cds are on their way out, chain places are going/gone, and you can buy records albums at Best Buy.

 

It seems weird to me.

 

I think it is really only something that has become the in thing to do, and/or something that music freaks collect.

 

Most people I know only listen to the radio, or their music collection consist of whatever tracks are on their telephone or iPod.

 

I once received a big stack of records albums from a radio station - this was around 1991 or so - due to the fact they were all going in the garbage. The same with the turntables they had.

[rockinrob]

I think it is the in thing to do, but I think enough people have become hooked on it that it will continue to be a viable market. I am 23, and have gotten several of my friends to start buying LPs. I even got my dad back into it. He is collecting all of the wilco releases and bought a turntable for the living room at my parent's place.

 

I think there are a decent sized group of people out there that was never happy with being forced to abandon vinyl. Vinyl provides a tangible way to consume music, and I think that there is a big enough group of music fans that can appreciate that. I think before much longer we will see things split basically between LPs, MP3s, and a Lossless download forma such as FLAC. Not pressing CDs would be more economical for bands. The people that care about getting the cover art can buy the vinyl with a download card, and the people that dont can just download it.

[thejokeexplained]

How about calling it a current resurgence among young people?

 

I don't recall seeing any record albums in stores since cds became the format of choice. I am talking about chain places, not the corner mom and pop record store with used vinyl, and 45s of the local bands. Of course, now cds are on their way out, chain places are going/gone, and you can buy records albums at Best Buy.

 

It seems weird to me.

 

I think it is really only something that has become the in thing to do, and/or something that music freaks collect.

 

Most people I know only listen to the radio, or their music collection consist of whatever tracks are on their telephone or iPod.

 

I once received a big stack of records albums from a radio station - this was around 1991 or so - due to the fact they were all going in the garbage. The same with the turntables they had.

 

Personally, I have not purchased; for myself, any digital music in the past 7 years. I have received it as gifts and given it as gifts. But if it has not been available on vinyl i have chosen to not buy it for myself. IMO if it's not worth the effort or the expense for the band to release it on wax it probably was not worth hearing. That said, I'm sure i have cheated myself out of some good music. But then again most artist i enjoy make the effort.

 

Side note, i do have KT cd in my collection but it was a gift. Listening to the KT vinyl I'm pretty confident will be the highlight of my evening the day it arrives

[tinnitus photography]

How about calling it a current resurgence among young people?

 

so true.

 

at the Spoon show last weekend, a kid behind me bought a copy of an LP from the opening band, The Strange Boys. Another guy (maybe he was in his early 20's) asked him if it was a '180' and the buyer had no idea what he was talking about.

[rockinrob]

I just saw record store day updated their page and it says that this is now coming with a CD too! So that probably means those extra tracks will be on that right?

[Col. Hapablap]

I just saw record store day updated their page and it says that this is now coming with a CD too! So that probably means those extra tracks will be on that right?

 

I certainly hope that's the case. I plan on getting this either way, but it'd be nice to have a cd w/those extra tracks.Wilcoworld doesn't list a cd. That's odd...

[choo-choo-charlie]

I certainly hope that's the case. I plan on getting this either way, but it'd be nice to have a cd w/those extra tracks.Wilcoworld doesn't list a cd. That's odd...

 

I too am unsure if a Wilcoworld order comes with a CD. Ordering from Nonesuch shows Audiophile-Quality MP3 (320 kbps) as part of the bundle...anybody know/already ordered?

[gabepride]

I always chuckle when I see the phrase "audiophile-quality MP3." As George Carlin said, "That's like 'military intelligence,' man. The words don't go together."

[sonicshoulder]

It's not just a record. Technically I just dropped 75 bucks on four records, some stickers I probably already have, and a poster for the garage when it gets finished in 2038. Sweet, I don't feel so bad. I'm figuring $75 is the cheapest you'll ever get this thing so if you want to complete your set you better jump on it.

[gabepride]

Anyone else who preordered from Amazon concerned that they seem to have removed the listing? Maybe they just sold out of their allotment. In my orders, it still says that they expect to ship on April 14.

[sonicshoulder]

Ships thursday right? I keep walking by my record player and making sure it's ready...it is.